Beeper Mini is back • Hacker News Board

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#151

Post by Nextgrid » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #99

KerrAvon wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving your Apple ID to a third party is an incredibly bad idea for your security, full stop. Do not ever do this. Any argument that this helps user security because your messages are now E2E is completely undermined by the risk to your identity for literally all of Apple's other services, and that someone could now impersonate you in Messages. But it'd be encrypted!

Of course, if you're on Android -- which you would be to use this service -- then maybe you don't even have any other Apple services (I don't). So this is not a problem. In fact, can't I not just create an new Apple ID specifically for this?

And if you're using this in place of SMS, having a single bad guy be able to read your messages is still better than having all the bad guys be able to read them.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#152

Post by hamandcheese » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

encoderer wrote: post #23

rpmisms wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, not the point. The point is to prove that it's possible and relatively simple, and the only reason Apple operates this way is to lock people into the ecosystem.

Nobody is locked into Apple products because of iMessage.

iMessage is one of the primary reasons I will not buy an Android phone.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#153

Post by oldandboring » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #67

campbel wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they are rightly calling out that iMessage as part of Apple's moat building is both bad for their customers and people their customers interact with. And while I agree with you, and I won't be using the service, I think from their POV it is the correct messaging.

Apple is at a scale in smartphone dominance that they're anticompetitive. There are only two vendors. They control everything about one of the most essential functional pieces of modern society. A smartphone is essential. Apple and Google tax 30%, control when and how software can be deployed, control browser tech (Apple), prevent web downloads of executable software (Apple) or scare and confuse you about it (Google)…

I had started writing basically this and stopped because you did a much better job. Thanks for taking the time to articulate this.

I want to add a subtle but important part: outside of the tech community, almost nobody knows this problem exists. If you try to explain it their eyes glaze over. Normies with iPhones, if they think anything, think iMessage is "texting". Blue bubbles mean they can see when you're typing and can send reactions, green bubbles mean you can't because you're on Android (or, "Samsung"). None of them think of iMessage as a "chat application" on par with WhatsApp... it's texting.

And all the government officials we wish would step in are included in this lot. They all have iPhones and they love them. iPhone is synonymous with 'smartphone' in common discourse and Apple is happy to trade brand dilution for that kind of "default" brand status.

And, as you eloquently point out, we could break the world trying to loosen Apple's grip on texting, only to find that we just transferred some of their power to Google, which isn't much better.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#154

Post by _gabe_ » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

SpaceManNabs wrote: post #53

oefrha wrote: post #15

> Android and iPhone customers desperately want to be able to chat together with high quality images/video, encryption, emojis, typing status, read receipts, and all modern chat features. There are numerous chat apps with those features, so I can’t see why people were “desperate” about it at all. Better yet, those existing chat apps aren’t likely to stop working tomorrow.

> iPhone customers desperately want to be able to chat together is also laughably false lol. iPhone users just want android users to get an iphone.

It’s false based on what? Your own anecdotal experience? I have a friend group that has iPhones and Androids. We went on vacation and had to jump through so many hoops just to share our pictures. We don’t care what devices everybody uses, because why the heck should that matter?

The fact that it can be simple to share high fidelity pictures and videos, but it isn’t just because Apple wants their walled garden benefits nobody but Apple. So your claim that this is laughably false is easily refuted by my anecdotal evidence.

People that are friends or family with differing devices do exist. I know, it’s shocking. And it would be nice to have something as simple as messaging just work without all these stupid UX downgrades for no reason at all.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#155

Post by I_Am_Nous » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #111

martinky24 wrote: post #13

These Beeper folk sound a bit entitled. As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread [1], building production applications on top of an undocumented and unsupported (in terms of backwards compatability, etc) API is a nightmare that should be avoided. Apple has every right to change their API, if they do Beeper will go down, and Beeper will blame Apple. I understand Apple's incentives to not want to be in this situ…

> I do not want to have my Apple ID login routed through a third party Then don't use Beeper. > I trust an established, trillion dollar company far more with that sensitive info than I do a fast-moving, eager-to-break-things startup. And the list goes on. Thankfully, you don't necessarily have to trust them since the entire process runs on your device. > I really don't believe they're entitled to parasite off the und…

This is more like a 3rd party releasing a tool that unlocks a proprietary security shroud so you can plug in a wireless router to an ISP POP. You aren't authorized to unlock that shroud or rebroadcast that internet, just like Beeper Mini is not authorized by Apple to use their authorization-required iMessage service.

If I sold internet off that wireless router and the next OSP tech that gets into that POP (rightfully) unplugs it, why should I have any right to call my ISP and chew them out because people gave me money for that internet access?

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#156

Post by PrimeMcFly » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:06 PM UTC

glasshug wrote: post #119

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not entitled at all, they are filling a void in the market that Apple doesn't want filled. As I understand it this is explicitly legal under the DMCA and the EU DSA,

Anyone have some detail on the copyright law connection here?

DMCA allows reverse engineering for interoperability. I'd say it's relevant.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#157

Post by Someone1234 » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:06 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #46

martinky24 wrote: post #13

These Beeper folk sound a bit entitled. As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread [1], building production applications on top of an undocumented and unsupported (in terms of backwards compatability, etc) API is a nightmare that should be avoided. Apple has every right to change their API, if they do Beeper will go down, and Beeper will blame Apple. I understand Apple's incentives to not want to be in this situ…

When did HN get so anti-consumer, anti- hacker , anti-freedom, pro-proprietary? Them taking the fight with Apple should be applauded. A walled down proprietary message platform only a few can use is stupid to fight in favor of.

If through magic they were able to make a replacement that didn't utilize Apple's servers/resources (e.g. Point-2-Point), I think you'd find the attitude different.

The inherent problem right now is that they want to create a commercial product using another company's servers/APIs without that company's permission, ultimately leaving Apple picking up the bill (inc. additional support ticket volume, like when iMessage gets locked on a given AppleId).

Is iMessage part of Apple's moat? Absolutely. Is it good for consumers for iMessage to have a hardware lock? No. But even if that is true, this seems like something regulators should be involved in solving.

Plus there is nothing anti-proprietary or pro-freedom that Beeper Mini is doing.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#158

Post by unshavedyak » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:06 PM UTC

vineyardmike wrote: post #116

matsemann wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did HN get so anti-consumer, anti- hacker , anti-freedom, pro-proprietary? Them taking the fight with Apple should be applauded. A walled down proprietary message platform only a few can use is stupid to fight in favor of.

A walled down proprietary messaging platform is so common as to be unremarkable. Google has probably 5 in the works right now. Meta has a few, and there’s dozens of others to choose from. It was really cool news when they reverse engineered the API. It was less cool when they sold paid access to this unofficial API. Beeper is barely pro-consumer because again, they’re charging for something open sourced by a 16yo kid…

Is this paid? I thought it was free.

As for beeper cloud, I’m a paying customer to Apple and I just want to use my damn chat app on desktop that I pay for.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#159

Post by radlad » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:06 PM UTC

fkyoureadthedoc wrote: post #105

radlad wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what metric? Arguably, users are less secure since "fixing" Messages (i.e. breaking Beeper) means Apple and Android users lose a secure communication channel. Beeper isn't "hacking" Messages... they've implemented the protocol.

To lose something you'd have to have had it to begin with. Users aren't gaining an additional secure messaging channel would be a more accurate description. I personally won't waste my time trying to be an early adopter of this. I suspect the upcoming RCS support will be the only "apple native" way to have non-shit tier messaging between android and iOS, and Apple will keep breaking Beeper if they can.

I was using Beeper Mini a few days ago, so not sure what you mean by "had to have it to begin with." I did!

My partner and I were finally able to move off Messenger... for a day.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#160

Post by Nextgrid » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 6:06 PM UTC

richwater wrote: post #121

rpmisms wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Force Apple to either allow or implement iMessage interoperability via competitive tactics, not regulatory means.

I don't want millions of Android phones being able to spam me on iMessage, thank you very much.

Apple will need to charge a registration fee for devices that can't be strongly authenticated (no secure element) - that way legitimate use (of both Beeper and legacy non-SE devices) is possible while spam is made unprofitable.