Beeper Mini is back • Hacker News Board

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#101

Post by Fuzzwah » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

jkubicek wrote: post #63

rpmisms wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, not the point. The point is to prove that it's possible and relatively simple, and the only reason Apple operates this way is to lock people into the ecosystem.

Running the iMessage service for a billion iPhone users can't be cheap. Opening up the API and running it for the entire rest of the world for free is a non-starter. No company on earth is that generous, let alone Apple.

Why does it have to be free? Aren't beeper showing that there is a market of users who would pay to be able to use imessage from non-apple hardware?

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#102

Post by solardev » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

campbel wrote: post #36

martinky24 wrote: post #13

These Beeper folk sound a bit entitled. As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread [1], building production applications on top of an undocumented and unsupported (in terms of backwards compatability, etc) API is a nightmare that should be avoided. Apple has every right to change their API, if they do Beeper will go down, and Beeper will blame Apple. I understand Apple's incentives to not want to be in this situ…

I think they are rightly calling out that iMessage as part of Apple's moat building is both bad for their customers and people their customers interact with. And while I agree with you, and I won't be using the service, I think from their POV it is the correct messaging.

As a Google Android user using a Google Pixel and Google's RCS on Google Fi, the messaging system is a total clusterfuck. There's no way to reliably send or receive messages, and sometimes my images will be degraded silently, group messages to other Fi users often don't work before several retries, reactions are totally hit and miss...

IMessage is a much much much better experience. It's not at all bad for their customers. It's a huge plus of that system over Android and other platforms that still try to piggyback off SMS or haphazardly support RCS.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#103

Post by MitchellKnight » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

Isn't this a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or other US laws? Doesn't the fact they are trying to make money off of this negate any ethical hacker arguments?

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#104

Post by nkcmr » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

Yeah, I am not expecting this to be a protracted game of cat and mouse. Apple will just sue them in the end; that'll put a REAL quick stop to this.

I wish things had more interoperability, but Apple is under no obligation to implement it or be okay with it. And honestly, I believe them when they say that this is a security/privacy risk; even if it does serve their anticompetitive tendencies.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#105

Post by fkyoureadthedoc » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

radlad wrote: post #18

CharlesW wrote: post #6

As an Apple customer, I applaud their tenacity. Every time Beeper's protocol hacks are fixed, Messages gets more secure.

By what metric? Arguably, users are less secure since "fixing" Messages (i.e. breaking Beeper) means Apple and Android users lose a secure communication channel. Beeper isn't "hacking" Messages... they've implemented the protocol.

To lose something you'd have to have had it to begin with. Users aren't gaining an additional secure messaging channel would be a more accurate description.

I personally won't waste my time trying to be an early adopter of this. I suspect the upcoming RCS support will be the only "apple native" way to have non-shit tier messaging between android and iOS, and Apple will keep breaking Beeper if they can.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#106

Post by knowald » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

It might be a controversial topic, but this post had some oddly rapid upvotes for HN.

I'm trying to understand what the target of this hacky iMessage spin-off of Beeper is. The whole idea of subscription-based monetization. Rather no way of Apple not patching quickly, dealing with this as soon as it raises attention.

But maybe that was the intent of a hack they found? A clever marketing strategy, to gain some rapid traction with the controversy, highlighting their project?

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#107

Post by misnome » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #46

martinky24 wrote: post #13

These Beeper folk sound a bit entitled. As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread [1], building production applications on top of an undocumented and unsupported (in terms of backwards compatability, etc) API is a nightmare that should be avoided. Apple has every right to change their API, if they do Beeper will go down, and Beeper will blame Apple. I understand Apple's incentives to not want to be in this situ…

When did HN get so anti-consumer, anti- hacker , anti-freedom, pro-proprietary? Them taking the fight with Apple should be applauded. A walled down proprietary message platform only a few can use is stupid to fight in favor of.

It isn’t anti-freedom and pro-proprietary to have a view on what you think the law says and what you think Apple’s right to respond is.

The original kid who reversed: Great hacking, I think we can all applaud. This is a for-profit (VC funded?) company charging users by piggy backing off of servers they don’t own or pay for (and using apple binary blobs?).

If they used the protocol they reverse engineered on their own servers that’d be completely different. But that wouldn’t be profitable for them.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#108

Post by afavour » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

martinky24 wrote: post #13

These Beeper folk sound a bit entitled. As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread [1], building production applications on top of an undocumented and unsupported (in terms of backwards compatability, etc) API is a nightmare that should be avoided. Apple has every right to change their API, if they do Beeper will go down, and Beeper will blame Apple. I understand Apple's incentives to not want to be in this situ…

The way I see it Beeper are deliberately poking the bear. They knew Apple would block their implementation (I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they had this replacement ready to go). You don’t have to trust them, if you don’t want to use the service then don’t.

They’re highlighting the closed nature of Apple’s messaging system more effectively than anyone has in a long time. I support them in doing that.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#109

Post by rpmisms » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

albelfio wrote: post #62

martinky24 wrote: post #13

These Beeper folk sound a bit entitled. As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread [1], building production applications on top of an undocumented and unsupported (in terms of backwards compatability, etc) API is a nightmare that should be avoided. Apple has every right to change their API, if they do Beeper will go down, and Beeper will blame Apple. I understand Apple's incentives to not want to be in this situ…

Devil’s advocate: does Beeper opens up iMessage to spam bots?

This is addressed in the announcement, beeper is happy to add a pager emoji to the message metadata to allow for identification.

Re: Beeper Mini is back

#110

Post by PrimeMcFly » Mon, Dec 11, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

CharlesW wrote: post #71

barnabee wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Apple given their scale and position in the market should be forced to operate and interoperate with an open standard for messaging. iMessage should no longer allowed to be proprietary and stay part of Apple.

> Apple given their scale and position in the market should be forced to operate and interoperate with an open standard for messaging. You mean like SMS and MMS right now, and RCS next year? https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/

No, we mean cutting out that blue/green bubble shit to drive wedges between users.