It would be hard to really know, but I'm curious what percentage of the total US prison population is innocent. Per capita prison rate is still around 5 in 1000 according to Wikipedia, which is very high for the developed world.
Innocent meaning they didn’t do the specific crime, or innocent as in someone with a clean record that was railroaded? If you’re looking for the criminal that killed a bunch of people but not that specific case it’s not that uncommon. If you’re looking for a squeaky clean guy that was there at the wrong place at the wrong time it’s very rare. Most criminals are repeat offenders.
Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
11–20 of 205 posts
Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#12Anyway, this article is spot on and this is a really rampant specific issue.
“expert witnesses have often overstated the probative value of their evidence, going far beyond what the relevant science can justify.”
This is the absolute center of the issue. Experts are used by the prosecution AND defense, but the experts used by the prosecution are often times so hilariously and openly biased that its insane how little pushback they get. Career cops with poor credentials that spend 30 years going from witness stand to witness stand saying literally whatever. You can definitely find biased 'pay for opinion' style experts for defense (its a profitable industry after all), and ive had the misfortune of trying to course correct them and their clients, but they are less frequently biased via a long career in law enforcement, and more importantly, get absolutely flambéed when they display the same level of bullshit as prosec witnesses. There are actual possible consequences for defense experts who lie, you get roasted in a news article that shows up on every google search and nobody with integrity will hire you ever again. That just doesnt happen for prosecution experts, ever. most media is terrified to highlight those bad actors because of the huge pushback they get from cops/cop unions/and more importantly the rabid facebook populace that will NOT stand for police criticism. and judges will very rarely hand down sanctions. after all, over a third (37 percent) of sitting justices (state supremes) are former prosecutors, while only 7 percent are former public defenders. (https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/stat...)
The article cites a few specific examples of experts creating a huge wake of bullshit in the legal field as they trudge around making stuff up, but a more convincing writeup with broader examples of fraud in the field was done by the intercept here (https://theintercept.com/2015/04/24/badforensics/) in 2015. I can assure you the problem is still bad.
Dont think its better with digital evidence just because there are hash values and log files. I have seen (insert f.agency here) plainly and clearly fabricate evidence (and get away with it). Countless instances of smart people who, definitely, beyond any doubt, know and understand what their evidence ACTUALLY indicates, and instead inflate its value to a ludicrous degree.
TLDR; If its physical evidence, and not exact DNA match(think tire marks, blood spatter, bite marks), its wouldnt remotely be accurate enough to be court admissible if the courts were functioning properly and vetting expert witnesses properly. if its digital evidence, and there are claims like "person was at location x,y,z at time a,b,c" and not in the format "the device was more likely than not in the general vicinity at the general time" then they are talking out of their ass. in absence of security footage or the like.
my bias: if it wasnt obvious, i work with the defense the majority of the time, on digital evidence, and i am going to see and remember the transgressions of the other side more often. i try to account for that. not a lawyer. so much to learn in the field still. just an internet ignoramus
Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#13The police and prosecution are the ones using these tools to attack innocent people. The article opens with a case of the corrupt prosecution intentionally and illegally withholding evidence. This isn’t about bad science, this is about bad prosecutors who are more interested in convictions than justice. Selective enforcement and opportunities to engage in misconduct like this are endemic in the US criminal justice sy…
I've always been perplexed by the incentive to get convictions. This is guaranteed to result in prosecutors preferring any method with a lot of false positives.
Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#14It would be hard to really know, but I'm curious what percentage of the total US prison population is innocent. Per capita prison rate is still around 5 in 1000 according to Wikipedia, which is very high for the developed world.
Innocent meaning they didn’t do the specific crime, or innocent as in someone with a clean record that was railroaded? If you’re looking for the criminal that killed a bunch of people but not that specific case it’s not that uncommon. If you’re looking for a squeaky clean guy that was there at the wrong place at the wrong time it’s very rare. Most criminals are repeat offenders.
If this is your genuine belief, it begs the question: why are Americans, on average, such terrible people when compared to other first world citizens?
Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
Innocent meaning they didn’t do the specific crime, or innocent as in someone with a clean record that was railroaded? If you’re looking for the criminal that killed a bunch of people but not that specific case it’s not that uncommon. If you’re looking for a squeaky clean guy that was there at the wrong place at the wrong time it’s very rare. Most criminals are repeat offenders.
Most businesses create and cultivate repeat customers from specific target markets. The US prison industrial complex is adept at this.
Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#16Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#17JPEG encoding (and thus MPEG encoding) takes 8x8 blocks of pixels and represents them as a discrete cosine transform. In a very real way these pixels don’t actually exist. If your video evidence relies on such a small portion of MPEG encoded video, you can easily mislead a jury to convicting an innocent person.
I’m reminded of the Rittenhouse trial where the prosecutors had a technician massage a still from a video for hours until some very tiny collection of pixels, enlarged from the original by quite a bit, were arranged in such a way that they said demonstrated Rittenhouse initiated aggression against the first man he shot.
The defense actually had some idea about such a small collection of pixels not being a reliable representation of reality, but couldn’t sufficiently explain it and didn’t have an expert who could, so the judge allowed it.
Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#18I don't know the solution. Ideally, everyone would be good at math, but I don't see that happening in the near future. My best answer is for us to provide every court have an on-call statistician, reviewing every case. I would hope big law firms are already doing this, but you should get a mathematically-sound judgement even if you have to depend on an underfunded and overworked public defenders.
(More recently, I've been wondering this about scientific publishing. Misusing statistical tests--or choosing the wrong once seems--like a fairly common source of error in peer-reviewed science. It feels like there, too, we need expert statisticians carefully reviewing every paper of note. Given the amounts charged by some journals, it feels like a reasonable service to demand of them.)
Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#19It would be hard to really know, but I'm curious what percentage of the total US prison population is innocent. Per capita prison rate is still around 5 in 1000 according to Wikipedia, which is very high for the developed world.
this seems really good until you realize its 20,000-140,000 people in prison right now. that are innocent.
and it gets REALLY bleak when you look at the 400,000 people who are locked up at any given time, pretrial, in jail. who are legally innocent. The proportion of individuals held in jail pending trial increased from 56 percent of the jail population in 2000 to 66 percent in 2018 (https://www.brookings.edu/articles/a-better-path-forward-for...)
so, of the roughly 2 million people behind any bars at any given time, 400,000-500,000 are innocent. 25%.
Re: Bad science and bad statistics in the courtroom convict innocent people
#20Even photo and video evidence suffers from courtrooms that don’t understand how nearly all cameras will record and encode images. JPEG encoding (and thus MPEG encoding) takes 8x8 blocks of pixels and represents them as a discrete cosine transform. In a very real way these pixels don’t actually exist. If your video evidence relies on such a small portion of MPEG encoded video, you can easily mislead a jury to convicti…
Its not like those kinds of processes, the "enhancing" filters, are inherently bad or inadmissible, you just have to be clear with the judge and jury what the hell is actually happening.