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New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

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Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#151

Post by erik_seaberg »

fragmede wrote: post #87
thisgoesnowhere wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The infrastructure to count passengers would be either a security nightmare because of the surveillance requirements or a inefficient mess where you have to stop for some person to manually see how many people are in the car. The system they are describing is better.

Fwiw, California's new toll expressways do this - counts people in the car at speed, and charges different rates based on that - so the technology already exists.

In the San Francisco Bay Area, they require toll transponders, some having a switch saying whether you have one, two, or three or more occupants. I don’t know how they would catch cheaters, if at all.

Edit: Apparently the highway patrol is notified of carpools they should watch in passing.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#152

Post by dbalatero »

shipscode wrote: post #45
dbalatero wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There will also be discounts for low-incomes motorists (below $50,000 per year) who need the car to get around. However, as a 2022 study pointed out, most drivers who enter Manhattan have medium or high incomes, meaning only 4% of drivers will receive a discount I read this as "96% of drivers will be fine." Do you have other information to add here? Would be interested if so.

$50k in NYC is nothing. $350-$450 month in tolls is enough to break households that pull in way more than that.

Doesn't car ownership in NYC break households, between massive parking costs, high insurance, gas, idling in traffic, plus normal maintenance? I'm curious where using a car actually becomes a better deal given the transit options here. I'm sure there's instances, but it's hard to envision. Living way on the edge of an outer borough but working in the middle of Manhattan?

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#154

Post by up2isomorphism »

It is just another killing the hen attempt to desperately cover NYC fiscal sinkhole. And bunch of people who celebrate this just have little understanding about NYC's traffic pattern.

I did not know any people in NYC go to Manhattan using personal cars more than 5 times a year. Almost all people driving there have to drive there for the business reasons. And if they have to pay the tax it is just falls on all the people using the city's services, regardless if you drive or not. Also because of this, it will not improve the air quality because they still have to drive, and to send vital goods, providing service to the people never drives in the city. So the net effect is using tax payer's money to fund disastrous city fiscal condition which the result of corruption. BTW, we all know wandering Uber/Lyft cars are the most polluting factor these years, but the city does not want to do anything about it.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#155

Post by up2isomorphism »

avbanks wrote: post #109
varispeed wrote: post #46

Now that's some gaslighting there. Congestion as in there is too many poor entering the Manhattan, so they set the fee so only those who can afford $15 can enter. If it was about actual congestion then the fee would be proportional to one's affluence, otherwise the rich will just come in as if nothing was imposed.

I'm sorry but this isn't indicative of the reality of driving in NYC. If you drive into NYC, you will have to park. When you park you'll need to pay for a lot or a garage. Daily parking in NYC can cost $50-100, monthly subscriptions can easily run over $500. Even if the unlikely happens and you find a parking meter those are $10 an hour. Poor people aren't driving into NYC, they're commuting on trains like everyone e…

If you know who parks there, they are either at least earning > 2M annually who likely to be benefit from such pricing (gods know who will receive the contract that city awarded from the revenue of congestion pricing), or they are the people has to conduct services in the city. These cost just is going to added the money to normal people like you (assume you are not not owning a penthouse in Manhattan).

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#156

Post by [deleted] »

refulgentis wrote: post #77
Ekaros wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because 15 is clearly unfair price for the poor people. This only benefit the rich who already are cause for majority of emissions. Lottery is absolutely fair for everyone. OCR at borders would be easy to implement. Just have a gate and diversion lines back to where car entering came from. And simple online sing-up system and rng run every night is extremely simple software project. Or if car without daily lottery ti…

Is this set of people greater than 0? A) can't afford $15 B) have a car C) need the car in Manhattan D) can afford to wait N days to enter Manhattan I grew up poor -- thank you FAANG, am not anymore -- but sometimes I still feel the same icky anger I used to feel when people would make abstract arguments that presumed being poor is pure destitution, just to keep things interesting for some argument.

[deleted]

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#157

Post by citrusx »

Keep an eye on this, because this will do nothing to lower congestion in NYC. It's purely a money grab.

The drop in traffic that experts are expecting already happened during the Bloomberg administration, when they made most areas in Lower and Midtown Manhattan "no parking" zones, and jacked up the taxes on parking garages.

No one drives into Manhattan unless they have to, and congestion pricing won't change the situation for those people who don't have a choice.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#158

Post by avbanks »

mikewarot wrote: post #141
avbanks wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will actually make living here more attractive. Most people who actually live in the city do not drive, we take public transportation. I don't want to sound condescending but we'd prefer our city to be catered to people who actually live here instead of people who are just visiting. Hopefully this will free up more space for pedestrian zones and bike lanes.

NYC is currently optimized for extreme density, with a huge flow of commuters into offices that now are mostly empty. If you want it to turn back into lower density housing, you'll have to find a way to trim back expenses to the point where the debt loads of the city are sustainable. Without the tax income from all those offices, and the surrounding shops, etc., NYC is unsustainable. It's been that way for a while, r…

The vast majority of workers commute on public transportation. NYC is extremely accessible via public transportation. Catering the city to cars isn't scalable.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#159

Post by avbanks »

varispeed wrote: post #128
avbanks wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Congestion as in there is too many poor entering the Manhattan, so they set the fee so only those who can afford $15 can enter." You said that will adversely affect the poor but that's not true, what poor person is spending $100 a day on parking? Poor people use trains like nearly everyone else does. The extra $15 will discourage people from making unnecessary trips into the city thus reducing traffic/congestion and…

Poverty is relative. Someone may be compensated well enough to afford rent, parking and all that, but after paying everything they have little money left for themselves. That $15 may eat into this meaning you may reconsider whatever arrangement you have - effectively pricing you out. > The extra $15 will discourage people from making unnecessary trips into the city thus reducing traffic/congestion and improving quali…

> Yes, people who can't afford spending $15. Anyone else will continue as they do, as private transport is safer, quicker and more convenient - plus there will be better traffic, as the poor will be taken off the road.

This isn't true most of the time is quicker to take public transportation due to the congestion issues. Cars don't scale.

> How is that going to do that? If someone is affluent, I don't think they are going to think twice about spending $15 extra. It will discourage people who cannot afford it.

Yes the point is to discourage people from driving into Lower Manhattan. Lower Manhattan is easily accessible by public transportation.

> Poverty is relative. Someone may be compensated well enough to afford rent, parking and all that, but after paying everything they have little money left for themselves. That $15 may eat into this meaning you may reconsider whatever arrangement you have - effectively pricing you out.

The poverty rate for NYC is $35,000 if someone can afford to pay $24,000 yearly in parking I doubt they're in poverty, especially when public transportation is available and is quicker due to the high congestion. This wouldn't be implemented if there wasn't an alternative.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#160

Post by avbanks »

RhysU wrote: post #130
avbanks wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When those people start paying NYC income tax (which tops at around 4% of income) then I think we should cater more to them BUT they don't. The people who actually in the city and actually have to pay that tax should have their city catered to their likes. No one forces those people to work in NYC an no one forces them to drive. The vast majority of commuters outside of NYC take public transportation. People can eith…

We in NJ who work in NY already pay income taxes to NY state even if we don't reside in the boroughs. Instead of charging me $15 more to visit, go have Adams ask Hotchul for money if you want to reach further into my pocket. But you can't, because NYC can't elect competent representatives. De Blasio, really? Adams' recent scandal? Just have someone who can negotiate with their own goddamn party. So instead you bastar…

I'm very confused by this, who is forcing you to work in NYC? If NJ is so great why not get a job there?
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