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Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

nytimes.com

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Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#291

Post by fallingknife »

macNchz wrote: post #249
jillesvangurp wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of automation is causing ATC work to be stressful. People orchestrating complex procedures over a shared vhf radio channel is inherently hard and error prone. Which is why it involves people endlessly confirming and double checking known bits of information. Automation could simplify that a lot and remove a lot of the uncertainty. Making communications easier might save some lives. A lot of accidents are cau…

> The lack of automation is causing ATC work to be stressful. … > And it would free up ATC staff and pilots to do more urgent things. There’s a problem that can happen with this, though, wherein the “easy” routine work is automated out and the number of humans involved is scaled down, but the work those people do then winds up being 100% the urgent/stressful stuff. I’ve heard that ER doctors have been experiencing th…

Isn't that how it should be? Why should a highly paid doctor ever be involved in a routine case that could easily be handled by a nurse?

As an engineer I only get tickets that are too difficult to be handled by support and require code changes. Why should medicine be any different?

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#292

Post by fallingknife »

projectileboy wrote: post #278

The US has developed a strong culture of believing that government is always the problem and government workers are always lazy and overpaid. And so cutting funding to these kinds of services becomes an easy sell. The problem is our society depends on these government employees. It’s no different than nursing, teaching, and many other professions - disparage it enough and eventually you’ll succeed in making no one in…

Why do you think we have developed that culture? In my case it's because I know two people who have worked for the government or deal with it daily for their job, and they have told me that. And their low opinion of government is corroborated by my one experience dealing with the government.

None of this was with ATC, but my point is that this attitude you complain about is just a reflection of reality.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#293

Post by davedx »

himinlomax wrote: post #248
davedx wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands ebikes are a game changer because many people can now commute between cities on a bike (bike lanes are alongside motorways too). But they are so fast! There’s been an increase in dangerous accidents with them, particularly among the older generations. Electrification is great but it has risks too.

Legal ebikes in the EU stop their electrical motor at 25 km/h. You can go faster, but only as much as you would with a regular bike, ie by pedaling. Therefore ebikes are not the problem as such, illegal vehicles are the problem.

It's still fast for cycle paths where everyone is accustomed to people cycling manually, and it's definitely not just illegal vehicles. See: https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/voorlopige-cijfers-laten-...

> In 2022, at least 578 road accidents killed at least one, in 2019 there were 522. The number of accidents with at least one injured person has also increased considerably: in 2019 there were 18,298, in 2022 no less than 21,455. According to the police, the e-bike appears to play a greater role, especially with people over fifty. The figures do not necessarily mean that cyclists on an e-bike caused the accident, but it is important to see where the increase comes from.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#294

Post by c0brac0bra »

projectileboy wrote: post #278

The US has developed a strong culture of believing that government is always the problem and government workers are always lazy and overpaid. And so cutting funding to these kinds of services becomes an easy sell. The problem is our society depends on these government employees. It’s no different than nursing, teaching, and many other professions - disparage it enough and eventually you’ll succeed in making no one in…

That's called an earned reputation.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#295

Post by K0HAX »

autoexec wrote: post #276
lostlogin wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regarding this thread, I really want to caution on the desire to automatically assign worse car crash rates to covid-19 infections, or any other specific cause. People’s tolerance levels and general concern for other humans plummeted in the post covid times. The warning signs about acceptable behaviour in supermarkets, medical practices and restaurants proliferated. I don’t know how you measure that effect though.

I worry that people may just feel like we're doomed and it's causing some to lose it.

That's a self-fulfilling prophesy, and an unstable feedback loop

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#296

Post by two_handfuls »

projectileboy wrote: post #278

The US has developed a strong culture of believing that government is always the problem and government workers are always lazy and overpaid. And so cutting funding to these kinds of services becomes an easy sell. The problem is our society depends on these government employees. It’s no different than nursing, teaching, and many other professions - disparage it enough and eventually you’ll succeed in making no one in…

It’s a strategy by politicians that want to cut services so they can further lower tax on the rich.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#297

Post by rowanG077 »

MandieD wrote: post #283
rowanG077 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure phones can explain it. Even when I was in high school 10 years ago everyone had a smartphone with social media.

But you didn’t have ubiquitous smartphones and tablets when you were 6-10 years old, and weren’t handed a smartphone to head off a tantrum during the absolutely critical brain development years before school.

I don't think there is any evidence that smartphone usage by kids has any impact on brain development.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#298

Post by onetimeusename »

dawnerd wrote: post #206
onetimeusename wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I followed road traffic safety since 2020 closely (and have submitted and posted about it here) and traffic fatalities is slowly coming down since 2020. My hypothesis about it was that the empty roads in 2020 caused drivers to degenerate in terms of road manners. For example, deaths per mile actually increased in 2020 despite people driving fewer miles which suggests people drove less safely. On the other hand this a…

I’ve noticed a pretty drastic decline in driving behavior around here. We’re seeing a LOT more just absolutely insane drivers doing things you’d only see in the worst of compilations a few years ago. Something happened during Covid that made people just not care anymore. Also doesn’t help that cops are not pulling people over as much as they should. Watched someone just yesterday fly through a red right in from of a…

Ya, to corroborate that I know road rage deaths increased in certain areas. There is evidence that people started speeding more too. Since people started speeding during 2020 (deaths per mile went up as total miles traveled went down) my thought was that maybe people became accustomed to not being policed and just started driving much more dangerously and then had a hard time adjusting back. I don't know. Reduced policing could also explain it, or maybe just a general decline in socialization. No one will look into it probably.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#299

Post by tass »

fallingknife wrote: post #291
macNchz wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lack of automation is causing ATC work to be stressful. … > And it would free up ATC staff and pilots to do more urgent things. There’s a problem that can happen with this, though, wherein the “easy” routine work is automated out and the number of humans involved is scaled down, but the work those people do then winds up being 100% the urgent/stressful stuff. I’ve heard that ER doctors have been experiencing th…

Isn't that how it should be? Why should a highly paid doctor ever be involved in a routine case that could easily be handled by a nurse? As an engineer I only get tickets that are too difficult to be handled by support and require code changes. Why should medicine be any different?

Software doesn’t quite have the same fungibility to allow for this, but imagine your job was only being responsible for urgent, high severity tickets throughout your company.

There was no time to mull over a problem, pair code with a peer or junior, or talk to a product owner because everything was urgent and on fire.

Re: Air traffic controllers pushed to the brink

#300

Post by pavel_lishin »

fallingknife wrote: post #292
projectileboy wrote: post #278

The US has developed a strong culture of believing that government is always the problem and government workers are always lazy and overpaid. And so cutting funding to these kinds of services becomes an easy sell. The problem is our society depends on these government employees. It’s no different than nursing, teaching, and many other professions - disparage it enough and eventually you’ll succeed in making no one in…

Why do you think we have developed that culture? In my case it's because I know two people who have worked for the government or deal with it daily for their job, and they have told me that. And their low opinion of government is corroborated by my one experience dealing with the government. None of this was with ATC, but my point is that this attitude you complain about is just a reflection of reality.

Thank you for your three anecdotes; we'll add them to the bucket.

Isn't this basically just some sort of weird selection effect? Similar to how people are more incentivized to leave a negative review when they're mad at a business, vs. a positive review when they had a good - or even just a "it was fine" - experience?

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