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Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#951

Post by skygazer »

skygazer wrote: post #413
empyrrhicist wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, totally understandable that this would be blocked within our legal system... but its a proof of concept that it would not be burdensome for apple to enable interoperability. We should be demanding support for open standards for messaging from mono/duopolists like Apple/Google.

In my experience, incoming SMS are mostly spam, and other low trust notifications, while incoming iMessages, even if unknown to me, are likely to be real people. Buying an Apple device is an expensive signal, and Apple will quickly shut down abusers, maintaining that relatively high bar. Letting (actual) Android users use iMessage probably wouldn’t affect that, but the open source hack/reversing of it opened the door…

Apple's statement: "At Apple, we build our products and services with industry-leading privacy and security technologies designed to give users control of their data and keep personal information safe. We took steps to protect our users by blocking techniques that exploit fake credentials in order to gain access to iMessage. These techniques posed significant risks to user security and privacy, including the potential for metadata exposure and enabling unwanted messages, spam, and phishing attacks. We will continue to make updates in the future to protect our users."

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#952

Post by vitiral »

nickez wrote: post #864

The reason gsm, 3g, 4g, sms and so on succeeded was because everyone could implement them. I guess you had to pay license or patent fees, but they are not walled gardens. Phones from different manufacturers and/or different operators can communicate. I'm surprised that "chat"-protocols are allowed to be monopolies by the regulators. The regulators probably don't understand tech.

It is indeed confounding how something as simple as chat and messaging can be so difficult to standardize. I suppose looking at the shitshow that is email standards (and how difficult it is to ensure valid senders) gives some insight, but yikes.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#954

Post by catlifeonmars »

treyd wrote: post #210
dmillar wrote: post #65

As usual, Gruber was right on the money. Via Threads yesterday: "My prediction is that Apple will make changes—fixing bugs and/or closing loopholes—that break Beeper Mini. It’s untenable that there’s unsanctioned client software for a messaging platform for which privacy and security are a primary feature. It’s a very nice app, remarkably clever, and for now works like a charm, but if Apple wanted an iMessage client…

>It’s untenable that there’s unsanctioned client software for a messaging platform for which privacy and security are a primary feature. I don't follow this logic at all. Shouldn't supporting thirdparty clients be desirable if security is a primary feature in the interest of transparency? Especially if the reference client is proprietary and undocumented.

Yes 100% Security and privacy should be built into the protocol. Anything else is just protectionism and security theater.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#955

Post by mixdup »

jethro_tell wrote: post #947
mixdup wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's untenable is that the third party software is unsanctioned. You can make the argument that it would be a good or better system with third party clients, or that Apple should open the system up, but it is ridiculous that anyone would trust a client/integration that depended on some kind of hack (regardless of the nature of that hack--such as whether it's decrypting and proxying or getting into the ecosystem in…

It's planning to make RCS blue bubble in 24.

They are planning RCS support. They've said nothing about how that will look in the app, it's not a given that will be in blue bubbles or fully feature complete with iMessage

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#956

Post by HKH2 »

noirbot wrote: post #677
inoop wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European living in the US, it's been baffling to me. Everywhere else in the world people use WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, etc. This iMessage green/blue bubble nonsense just isn't a thing outside the US.

I mean, isn't this just trading one bad monopoly for another? It's weird to me that everyone's like "oh, the backwards US where they gave in to the Apple monopoly. We enlightened rest of the world use Facebook's Whatsapp like real free people".

WhatsApp doesn't pressure people to buy another phone. Also, encryption is important.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#957

Post by danShumway »

paulmd wrote: post #950
jetpackjoe wrote: post #942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but messages from iPhones *to* androids is not encrypted.

of course they can't be, because google's RCS encryption extensions are proprietary and they've refused interop. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/google-enables-end-t... people forget that google has every interest in playing up the situation, and perversely this incentivizes them to refuse compromise or half-measures that might actually improve user experience. It's in google's interest for your apple google…

> of course they can't be

They absolutely can be. Apple could officially do what Beeper Mini did unofficially.

There's clearly a market of people on Android who would be willing to install an Apple messaging app in order to have secure messaging with their iOS contacts, and we know now that there's no technical barrier in front of an app like that existing.

Even if not every Android user installed that app, even if it was only a portion -- it would still represent a large security increase for a non-trivial number of messages sent from Apple devices. It would not require Google's permission for Apple to launch a messaging app on Android, nor would it require Apple to use Google's proprietary encryption extensions (or to even use RCS at all).

I agree that both Google and Apple have a vested interest in refusing interop, but it's not a stalemate -- both companies, individually, could take actions to improve security regardless of the other's position. It's not Apple's fault that Google has completely botched the entirety of RCS. It's not Apple's fault that Google is now disingenuously pushing a broken standard under the deceptive guise of interop. But it's also not Google's fault that Apple is forcing iOS users to use less secure communication methods for their Android contacts even in situations where Android users are demonstrating that they would be willing to install separate applications just to secure those communications.

Both companies have -- completely of their own free will -- chosen to leave the situation in its current state, and both companies could take steps to actually address these problems on their own if they wanted to. And neither Google nor Apple can blame the other for their failures to protect their own users.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#958

Post by a2dam »

mixdup wrote: post #955
jethro_tell wrote: post #947

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's planning to make RCS blue bubble in 24.

They are planning RCS support. They've said nothing about how that will look in the app, it's not a given that will be in blue bubbles or fully feature complete with iMessage

They actually did say that it will be green: https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-confirms-rcs-messages-w...

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#959

Post by garysahota93 »

_fzslm wrote: post #905
eiiot wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This already exists! https://airmessage.org

not quite what the parent comment was referring to - AirMessage is cool but needs a server Mac to run 24/7. parent is asking if it’s possible to spoof the secure identifiers from the Mac in Beeper - extracting the secure IDs, inputting them into Beeper - at which point Beeper can communicate directly with Apple as if it is that Mac. a clever workaround!

Precisely! Would be a cool workaround & I would be completely happy with this approach (vs losing access all together).

But I wonder if that’d even be possible. I hope someone from the Beeper team sees this!

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#960

Post by Spivak »

vitiral wrote: post #952
nickez wrote: post #864

The reason gsm, 3g, 4g, sms and so on succeeded was because everyone could implement them. I guess you had to pay license or patent fees, but they are not walled gardens. Phones from different manufacturers and/or different operators can communicate. I'm surprised that "chat"-protocols are allowed to be monopolies by the regulators. The regulators probably don't understand tech.

It is indeed confounding how something as simple as chat and messaging can be so difficult to standardize. I suppose looking at the shitshow that is email standards (and how difficult it is to ensure valid senders) gives some insight, but yikes.

Because "chat" is pretty much meaningless as a term. The only common thread between chat apps is "bidirectional data transfer between at least two devices." SMS and Discord are both chat but have wildly different completely incompatible semantics, iMessage embeds full iOS apps and a payment network into the chat.

I can't see any world where chat gets standardized that doesn't involve throwing out everything except the most basic sms-style semantics which is basically what RCS is.

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