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Make Apps for Linux

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201–210 of 422 posts

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem that is meant to be solved by distros. People who don't want many choices should be using a distro that makes a bunch of choices for them, instead of pushing to remove choice from the ecosysytem altogether. Everybody using the same software creates a monoculture which is more prone to attack than a diverse ecosystem. There's a reason Windows was targeted so much by viruses: not only was the target B…

> People who don't want many choices should be using a distro that makes a bunch of choices for them, instead of pushing to remove choice from the ecosystem altogether. You don't need to remove choice to push better UX and software. It's not a zero-sum game here; we can foster better conversations with people in the Linux community and start talking about what would make the experience better for the average user, no…

Missed a few things, my bad.

> This. Is. The. Problem. Framing an end-user as a mentally deficient 'normie'. Why? What's the point and what's to be gained from this?

Most end-users are, okay? If anything unusual happens at the computer they come running for the nearest nerd, poorly explain the problem, waste the nerd's time when it turns out it was simple, and the most important part, they don't learn from the experience.

It also serves as a useful distinction between types of users. Normies browse the web, maybe use an e-mail client, some office software, maybe Steam or Zoom, etc.

Power users want to explore the fullest capabilities of their computer. They're going to want different software and different experiences from the normies.

Developers will want to explore how much they can do and control. That's another type of user with different needs and software preferences.

Frankly, I'm not interested in talking about the needs of average users, because more average users will cause communities to believe their software doesn't need advanced features because there are greater numbers of simple users. Flooding Linux with normies won't make the software any better. It will create an Eternal September problem where you'll get loads of criticism and bug reports and problems, but almost nobody from that crowd will have the insight necessary to help devs decide on solutions.

There really isn't any third option. Everyman software ends up toddler-fied, and bespoke software overloads the normies. Both groups cannot be served by the same software. I challenge you to find any piece of software that adequately serves both groups.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Win32 (via Wine or Proton) is the most stable target for Linux right now Tangential, Winamp 2.xx from the '90s runs and plays MP3s just fine on Windows 11 today. There are better apps for that today, but I still use it because nostalgia really whips the llama's ass. Pretty wild that the same thing is not the norm in other OSs. Even wilder is that I still have my installed copy of Unreal Tournament 99 from my childho…

The most underrated feature of windows probably ever.

It really is mindblowing that Windows 11 is still capable of running 32-bit programs written for Windows 95, that's 28~29 years of backwards compatibility and environmental stability.

If we look back to programs written for Windows NT 3.1, released in 1993, and assume they run on Windows 11 (because why not?) then that's 30 years of backwards compatibility.

Did I say mindblowing? It's downright mythological what Microsoft achieves and continues to do.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#203
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manual exists for a reason. I find it much easier to type `man program` then `/whatever` until I find what I'm looking for rather than scanning the screen for the correct icon. There are also some conventions and after a while you get to a point where it's intuitive to use any new program. Just like with a GUI and icons, what does the wand do?

That assumes that you can already articulate the action you are looking for in the program's vocabulary. For people who think more pictorially, they may have a sense of what they want but benefit from visual cues.

I don't target specific options, but different words of what I'm trying to achieve, crop/cut/extract as a pretty bad example. It takes me to the description of the option I'm looking for where it will also have useful extra options to combine.

I can't say the same for GUI icons, many times hidden behind dropdowns. If I hover it will say select, then I have to find how to crop that selection, behind another dropdown, probably a few levels deep. And none of them searchable. If I need help there's no one place to find a guide, my best bet is google or the website.

For both an intuition has to be learned from use, but GUI people act like they were born with computer literacy. I used to think the CLI was stupid as well, but now that I've seen the light I can't imagine going back.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#204

This has always been an issue for Linux adoption. Somebody I know (not in tech) wanted to switch from Windows to Linux and I said: "Which one?" It's the same as Mastodon. "Which instance?" The answer is usually the biggest / most popular instance or distro, but not many applications the masses use are on Linux, the same as there is not many interesting people on Mastodon for people to switch over to it. Applications…

What do you think we'll gain by putting every idea into the same cookie jar?

This drive to create One True Linux is commercial behavior. People that want One True Linux want to put products on there to sell.

These people need to read the GNU Manifesto and realize they are not in the correct social structures to push for centralization.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like to shit on tools like Electron, but there's a reason they're popular. If you need to reach a broad audience with a native tool, using heavy-handed web-based plumbing is a bigger win for Linux users than supporting only windows and macos where like 97% of desktop users are.

As someone who uses Linux as a daily driver, I can recognize these gargantuan apps a mile away and stay away from them. They are absolute hogs of system resources, and for something simple like Etcher there's no excuse. Things like Electron are good for devs but bad for users. We have more computation power than ever and yet programs still run slow.

Worse for users than nothing? IT shouldn't be a default, but if it's that or nothing-- as it often is when it comes down to limited resources-- I think it's better than nothing. If you're looking to make a useful tool for a broad audience that must run locally, you have to support windows because that's where 80% of the users are. You should support OSX because that's where 15% of the users are. That's two codebases with dramatically diminishing returns. You need a damn good reason to justify adding ANOTHER codebase on there to scoop up the remaining handful of users on Linux.

Also, aside from startup time, I don't have any trouble with electron apps running slow on my machines. I think many developers are conceptually annoyed with the absurd, bloated architectural underpinnings rather than the experience that translates into when using them. Perception means a lot when judging performance, and I'll bet with most end users using, say, slack, the speed of their internet connection affects the speed of their work more than the speed of the application.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only in regards to figuring out the language and resources available but also the fact that creating a GUI still requires external dependencies. What external dependencies does Java need that's not in the JDK itself? I have an app with Mac and Windows installers (and thus bundles JDKs), it also runs on Linux (via a fat jar), I tested it on Ubuntu, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to package it p…

> What external dependencies does Java need that's not in the JDK itself? I mean that it doesn't come with Java itself, but you as a developer need to pick a UI framework and not all of them actually work all that well cross platform or will get you an actual modern interface. Edit: I should also note that the threshold for entry I am talking about is for people just generally starting out. There simply are way more…

> Also, when you start bundling your JDKs I am not sure you can talk about a smaller footprint anymore.

What, do you bundle Electron source and Electron build environment with your Electron app?

Why would you do the same and bundle Java source code + Java compilers in your Java app?

Why would you do the same and bundle source code + compilers in your app?

If you need to create a "just works without dependency b.s." experience in Java, you use the correct tooling for that, jlink.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most underrated feature of windows probably ever.

It really is mindblowing that Windows 11 is still capable of running 32-bit programs written for Windows 95 , that's 28~29 years of backwards compatibility and environmental stability. If we look back to programs written for Windows NT 3.1, released in 1993 , and assume they run on Windows 11 (because why not?) then that's 30 years of backwards compatibility. Did I say mindblowing? It's downright mythological what Mi…

NTVDM could have been ported to 64-bit Windows, but MSFT declined to do so. Leaked Windows source code shows it would have worked[0].

That would have given 16, 32, and 64 bit compatibility.

[0] https://github.com/leecher1337/ntvdmx64

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who uses Linux as a daily driver, I can recognize these gargantuan apps a mile away and stay away from them. They are absolute hogs of system resources, and for something simple like Etcher there's no excuse. Things like Electron are good for devs but bad for users. We have more computation power than ever and yet programs still run slow.

Worse for users than nothing? IT shouldn't be a default, but if it's that or nothing-- as it often is when it comes down to limited resources-- I think it's better than nothing. If you're looking to make a useful tool for a broad audience that must run locally, you have to support windows because that's where 80% of the users are. You should support OSX because that's where 15% of the users are. That's two codebases…

Your postulate that it is electron or nothing is wrong from the very start.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#210
Looks nice but in my experience, developing apps only for Linux is not cost-effective.

I would choose WxWidgets or Qt and add some extension points where needed via interfaces to keep the codebase portable.

Sticking to just native APIs is just locking yourself down into Linux.

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