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Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

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Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#561
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the hacker spirit here? The hacker spirit is the fun of reverse engineering. The hacker spirit is about personal use. It's not expecting to be able to turn it into a business , or a popular app, that wouldn't quickly be shut down. That's just common sense. > Myself for example owns a Macbook, but an Android phone. Am I not allowed to use iMessage? I paid the toll. Of course you can. It's sitting there on y…

It’s also at severe risk of ruining the fun for numerous other hacker-spirit communities like hackintosh or opencore. Apple can come down on this in ways that potentially make it much more difficult for hackintosh to operate, or for people to update their legitimate apple systems after the end of official support. Which was pointed out in those threads too. See also geohot taking some other PS3 exploits that were alr…

> it still puts the hackintosh and opencore communities in the middle as collateral damage.

Hackintosh is already on a death march.

Sooner or later Apple will remove support for all x86 OSX versions.

Its life can be extended a bit by hackers who try to backport the software from ARM to x86.

But you can't sustain the entire Apple ecosystem by volunteer work alone.

Why spend resources trying to kill it when we all know it will die ln its own in a few years?

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#562
post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iMessage is Apple's service, and they can do with it whatever they want. No other arguments are really relevant. As for whatever reasons Apple comes up with: that is probably also not going to be relevant as a multinational that is beholden to money is going to have the legal department and PR do that sort of messaging and not anyone on the technical side of things. Speculating as to why things are the way they are:…

They can't, if they have extreme market power, mich like Microsoft can't do anything they want with Windows

And that's where that 'if' is important: iMessage isn't very relevant outside of the US. Worldwide it doesn't even reach the top 5. Inside the US, even Facebook Messenger is apparently used more than iMessage.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#563
post #210
post #65

As usual, Gruber was right on the money. Via Threads yesterday: "My prediction is that Apple will make changes—fixing bugs and/or closing loopholes—that break Beeper Mini. It’s untenable that there’s unsanctioned client software for a messaging platform for which privacy and security are a primary feature. It’s a very nice app, remarkably clever, and for now works like a charm, but if Apple wanted an iMessage client…

>It’s untenable that there’s unsanctioned client software for a messaging platform for which privacy and security are a primary feature. I don't follow this logic at all. Shouldn't supporting thirdparty clients be desirable if security is a primary feature in the interest of transparency? Especially if the reference client is proprietary and undocumented.

[flagged]

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#564

Brutal. Will there be refunds?

Well, to be fair, wasn't this always going to be the end state? I wouldn't be surprised if the choice of subscription plan was mostly because it makes "total value-time received" a really easy calculation. It worked for 2 months, you're not getting your 4$ back. Surprised it only lasted this long though, I'm sure they weren't betting on that. I still wouldn't expect a refund for the 1,50$ of 3 weeks this payment cycl…

> I still wouldn't expect a refund for the 1,50$ of 3 weeks this payment cycle that you didn't use.

I would. They sold a service that they clearly cannot reliably provide.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be mistaking what monopoly/duopoly is being mentioned here. Those companies aren't phone manufacturers and they don't make phone texting apps. The distinction might not matter to you, but it's clearly the meaning of the GP. You can say iMessage isn't a texting app because iMessage functionally (as in, the technical details) works like a non-texting app, but it is the only texting app on those phones…

You are aware that iPhones have many alternative messaging apps right? The second part of your comment is simply not true.

Texting is a feature of a phone. You cannot, without elaborate workarounds, text from a consumer computer, tablet or other device as if it was a phone. Texting requires a phone number and a phone plan.

I understand that the distinction might seem slight, but in the eyes of most US consumers, texting is distinct from a chat app that you download from an app store even if it uses your phone number.

The absolute one way that everyone with a phone has to send a textual message to another person is to text them with their phone number.

In the US, where adoption of Signal, Whatsapp, Discord, or insert hundreds of other apps is very small, the percentage of your real world contacts using a particular app is also extremely small. Convincing all of them to use Signal would certainly be great, but in reality you will be using all of those apps if you are trying to escape the interoperability nightmare that is currently texting.

Given that everyone has a phone and they are all texting already, it would be awfully nice if we could just use texting without these interoperability problems without having to manage all of the apps, and without having to remember who prefers which one.

Group texting is also hugely popular in the US. If no single third party messaging app covers the set of friends you want to group text, what do you do? You text them. Because everyone has it. Let's say when you started your group everyone was on Whatsapp. Phenomenal! Start the group on Whatsapp. Then you meet Joe, and Joe is very cool and you definitely want him in the group chat. Joe doesn't trust Meta products and doesn't want to use Whatsapp. Should Joe capitulate, install another chat app used only for a single group chat, and grant access to their device to a Meta app? Should a negotiation occur amongst the rest of the group where they select a new common app to run the group on and split the conversation history, while also adding an app that they only use for that group chat?

Let's say they choose to switch to Signal, but Josh keeps forgetting (dammit Josh) and keeps messaging the group on Whatsapp. And instead of yell at Josh that the group is on Signal now, folks reply! Because Josh's joke was super funny. Conversation also continues on Signal. Someone on Signal now does a reference to Josh's joke on Whatsapp. Joe is confused, but everyone else gets the joke. Someone realizes what happens and sends a screenshot of the joke and ensuing replies from within Whatsapp so Joe can catch up, but the messages around the joke are longer than one phone screen so there's a lot more context that he misses. Joe is annoyed but he gets over it.

A few months pass and Sandra seems to have a bug where Signal is chewing through her battery life. Since only one of her group conversations is on Signal (she uses Whatsapp mostly) and she is fine not getting the work related banter that is often the topic of the group chat. But then she finds an article that's super interesting and she wants to share it with the group. She remembers that the group moved to Signal, but who cares, that Whatsapp group still exists and there's only, like, one person that isn't in it. She sends the link in the WhatsApp group instead. This leads organically to the group wanting to get together for a holiday. They plan out that July 12th would be a perfect weekend, and since they want to do a potluck, they all choose what part of the meal they'll bring.

A few days before the potluck, someone mentions on the Signal chat that they are excited to see everyone at the potluck. Joe is very confused and asks what they mean. They realize that this was in the WhatsApp group chat and explain what everyone is bringing. Unfortunately Joe is working that weekend, and can't come.

Should the group chat reschedule?

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#566

One thing which is really confusing is why are Android users obsessed with iMessage? Android users can send text messages to iPhones, the can call iPhone users, and they can use third party messaging apps to communicate with iPhone users. It really isn’t clear to me why so many people are so angry they cannot use iMessage on Android.

Green bubbles means you won't be called back for a second date.

No, the holier-than-thou attitude of typical Android users shitting on the Apple Sheep is why they don’t get called back.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#567
post #65

As usual, Gruber was right on the money. Via Threads yesterday: "My prediction is that Apple will make changes—fixing bugs and/or closing loopholes—that break Beeper Mini. It’s untenable that there’s unsanctioned client software for a messaging platform for which privacy and security are a primary feature. It’s a very nice app, remarkably clever, and for now works like a charm, but if Apple wanted an iMessage client…

[deleted]

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#568

Where is the hacker spirit here? The number of Apple apologists that have crawled out to say "see? I told you so!!" is saddening. It is a bit dicey when you're charging for it, but since Mini was entirely client-side it would be feasible for a free version to exist. Apple claims iMessage is E2EE, do we have proof they aren't siphoning the messages from the client once it's been decrypted? The level of trust we have t…

Not much point in engaging with someone who sees all opposing views as “apologists” “crawling out”

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#569
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s untenable that there’s unsanctioned client software for a messaging platform for which privacy and security are a primary feature. I don't follow this logic at all. Shouldn't supporting thirdparty clients be desirable if security is a primary feature in the interest of transparency? Especially if the reference client is proprietary and undocumented.

How would third-party clients _increase_ security (other than indirectly, by people using SMS less)? On the contrary, third-party clients is a gigantic security hole, since Apple can't even know if a client app is spying on users.

> On the contrary, third-party clients is a gigantic security hole, since Apple can't even know if a client app is spying on users.

Security isn't about Apple knowing if an app is spying on users, but about THE USERS knowing that nobody is spying on them.

At best a third party iMessage client can only be as secure as iMessage itself because the back end is still closed and has no transparency, so it's the weakest link. If Apple (or a third party) is spying on the back end then no client can be safe.

> How would third-party clients _increase_ security (other than indirectly, by people using SMS less)?

They can increase security by breaking a single target into multiple targets, by increasing competition around security and privacy issues, by having more people use and work with the protocols and able to spot potential problems, by encouraging more transparency around issues when they arise, and by having alternatives readily available if one of the clients is found to be compromised or insecure.

And of course open source clients can be verified and validated by other developers and security professionals.

Re: Apple cuts off Beeper Mini's access

#570

So does this also now break iMessage for older iOS devices too? I thought someone said something about that to block beeper mini, Apple would have to also block older iOS devices as that’s the method they were using that wasn’t as locked down.

They were wrong insofar as there are multiple ways to combat this.

One of the easiest ways is to block Beeper's encryption key from generating encryption tokens. Another way is to block the fake serial numbers and UDIDs Beeper uses. Yet another way is to block Beepers push notification servers.

A more long-term solution is to require device attestation. This functionality is already built into iOS, and on newer devices, it utilizes the Secure Enclave on the device.

This doesn’t require older iOS devices to be excluded from iMessage because the attestation can partially be done via Apple’s servers. For the most secure method, however, you’d want the device to have a Secure Enclave.

Breaking compatibility with older devices isn’t unheard of, however, when Apple upgraded the FaceTime protocol, older devices that didn’t support the newer iOS versions were left out and couldn’t make FaceTime calls with more recent devices on the more recent protocol.

All in all, many tech tubers were talking out of their behind because they didn’t understand the inner workings and were parroting what others told them.

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