You are never taught how to build quality software • Hacker News Board

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#41

Post by groestl » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:02 PM UTC

slily wrote: post #35

groestl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because frankly, too much quality is not necessary, in many many cases. To know when you should or should not emphasize quality over quantity and speed, to meet a certain financial objective, is actually harder than writing quality software in the first place, I think.

I agree in principle, but in my experience quality is not nearly prioritized highly enough. There is not enough understanding of quality attributes beyond the most visible ones like compute performance and stability (i.e. lack of bugs). And even for those I work on projects where people complain about lack of proper test coverage constantly, but it is impossible to dedicate time to improve that.

> in my experience quality is not nearly prioritized highly enough

I agree with you on that one. IMHO it's because of that difficulty to know when to optimize for quality, but also because of sheer incompetence.

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#42

Post by nradov » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:04 PM UTC

FalconSensei wrote: post #23

KeplerBoy wrote: post #18

> It will be necessary to deliver software without bugs in time. Seems like a pretty bad premise to start an article on quality software. If you believe you can ship bug free code, it's time to switch careers.

> If you believe you can ship bug free code, it's time to switch careers. Unfortunately, you are correct. Shipping in time and bug free are inversely proportional, and in a world were usually it's hard to argue with PMs for more time to have better testing, or paying tech debt... it's just a reality

That's only true up to a point. There are some quality assurance and control activities that are essentially "free" in that they actually allow for shipping faster by preventing rework. But that requires a high level of team maturity and process discipline, so some teams are simply incapable of doing it. And even in ideal circumstances it's impossible to ship defect free software (plus the endless discussions over whether particular issues are bugs or enhancement requests).

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#43

Post by colinmorelli » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:04 PM UTC

reactordev wrote: post #40

colinmorelli wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An infinite amount of time would not necessarily yield zero bugs. But more importantly, once you've fixed the "show-stopping bugs," putting the software in front of customers is probably the best next step, as even if it's bug-free, that doesn't mean it solves the problem well.

there is no such thing as zero bugs. There is only a marker in time for a suite of tests that show no bugs. Doesn't mean larva aren't living under the wood. You can't control all the bits (unless you built your own hardware/software stack).

I think we're saying the same thing? That was my point. You're never going to achieve zero bugs no matter how much time you give yourself. Focus on getting the critical path right and creating a good experience, and then get it to customers for feedback on where to go next.

[The above does not necessarily apply in highly regulated industries or where lives are on the line]

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#44

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:05 PM UTC

chopsuey5540 wrote: post #38

KeplerBoy wrote: post #18

> It will be necessary to deliver software without bugs in time. Seems like a pretty bad premise to start an article on quality software. If you believe you can ship bug free code, it's time to switch careers.

You might be correct today but that’s a pretty sad state of affairs, don’t you think we can do better? Most other engineering domains can deliver projects without bugs, with various definitions of “bug” of course

[deleted]

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#45

Post by marcosdumay » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:09 PM UTC

addicted wrote: post #14

marcosdumay wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there any human activity where quality is an attribute successfully taught? Every industrial practice. On the other hand, the title just means that programming is not an industrial practice. What should be obvious to anybody that looked, but some people insist on not seeing it.

Yeah and you can see other disciplines like Aviation where there are so many incredible processes to ensure learning and constant improvement.

For pilots, there are many filters to ensure people that failed to learn can't take many responsibilities. They ensure the pilots study and train, but there isn't any theory making sure the pilots learn and get the best safety practices. (In fact, if you are comparing with CS teaching, pilot teaching will give you a heart attack.)

For engineers, the situation is very similar to software. There are many tools for enforcing quality, but there's no structure for teaching the engineers, and no, there isn't a widely accepted theory for how to teach design quality either.

The one place where people are consistently taught how to build quality is on manufacturing.

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#46

Post by KeplerBoy » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:09 PM UTC

chopsuey5540 wrote: post #38

KeplerBoy wrote: post #18

> It will be necessary to deliver software without bugs in time. Seems like a pretty bad premise to start an article on quality software. If you believe you can ship bug free code, it's time to switch careers.

You might be correct today but that’s a pretty sad state of affairs, don’t you think we can do better? Most other engineering domains can deliver projects without bugs, with various definitions of “bug” of course

I'm not sure about that. Which engineering domain do you have in mind?

Maybe show-stopping bugs are somewhat unique to software engineering, but all somewhat-complex products are flawed to some extent imho.

It might be an unergonomic handle on a frying pan, furniture that visibly warps under the slightest load (looking at ikea shelfing) or the lettering coming off the frequently used buttons on a coffee machine.

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#47

Post by randomdata » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

piloto_ciego wrote: post #24

randomdata wrote: post #2

Is there any human activity where quality is an attribute successfully taught? In my experience, being able to produce something of quality is gained only through practice, practice, practice.

Absolutely. I cannot fly professionally anymore due to health, but this is something we are taught in aviation and something I too find lacking from tech so far. Like, you’re taught the standards as part of learning to fly, but as time goes on, you’re told to narrow your tolerance of what is acceptable. So if you are learning how to do steep turns, for instance, the altitude standard is +- 100’. You’re taught, “that’…

> But the goal is “better, always better, what can I do better?”

Is that not the case in software? The incentive to improve may not be quite as strong as in aviation (crashing software isn't quite the same as crashing airplanes), but it is still pretty strong. Life is very miserable in software when quality isn't present.

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#48

Post by continuational » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

The process of building quality applications starts long before any code is written.

You need to understand the domain, you have to design something that solves an actual problem or delivers tangible value to someone, you need a holistic approach to user experience.

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#49

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:11 PM UTC

chopsuey5540 wrote: post #38

KeplerBoy wrote: post #18

> It will be necessary to deliver software without bugs in time. Seems like a pretty bad premise to start an article on quality software. If you believe you can ship bug free code, it's time to switch careers.

You might be correct today but that’s a pretty sad state of affairs, don’t you think we can do better? Most other engineering domains can deliver projects without bugs, with various definitions of “bug” of course

[deleted]

Re: You are never taught how to build quality software

#50

Post by Xeamek » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 7:15 PM UTC

groestl wrote: post #30

slily wrote: post #7

I was actually thought how to build quality software (which is not limited to "having no bugs") in college, but I do not have the time or resources to apply this knowledge consistently in a corporate setting because of the pressure to deliver.

Because frankly, too much quality is not necessary, in many many cases. To know when you should or should not emphasize quality over quantity and speed, to meet a certain financial objective, is actually harder than writing quality software in the first place, I think.

This is false. Its just that the costs of low quality code are much less obvious and harder to measure then the dev time. But the ammount of bad code just piles on itself over and over and over and we end up in a world where hardwares becomes incrementally faster while software becomes slower and slower, and more bugier. I mean, in the strict sense of the world an individual company will not pay those costs, but on a societal scale, how much time (and thus money) is wasted daily by all the people who are waiting 30secconds for windows explorer to load? If your app have millions of users, literally every additional second your app wastes multiplies to tangential numbers.

It's akin to pollution, really: Individual company making 'dirty' things won't see the consequences. But scale this mindset out and suddenly we wake up in a world when trillions of dollars are spend to counteract those effects.