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Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

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Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#161

That's not the only thing wrong. Gemini makes a false statement in the video, serving as a great demonstration of how these models still outright lie so frequently, so casually, and so convincingly that you won't notice, even if you have a whole team of researchers and video editors reviewing the output. It's the single biggest problem with LLMs and Gemini isn't solving it. You simply can't rely on them when correctn…

I’m not an expert but I suspect that this aspect of lack of correctness in these models might be fundamental to how they work.

I suppose there’s two possible solutions: one is a new training or inference architecture that somehow understand “facts”. I’m not an expert so I’m not sure how that would work, but from what I understand about how a model generates text, “truth” can’t really be a element in the training or inference that affects the output.

the second would be a technology built on top of the inference to check correctness, some sort of complex RAG. Again not sure how that would work in a real world way.

I say it might be fundamental to how the model works because as someone pointed out below, the meaning of the word “material” could be interpreted as the air inside the duck. The model’s answer was correct in a human sort of way, or to be more specific in a way that is consistent with how a model actually produces an answer- it outputs in the context of the input. If you asked it if PVC is heavier than water it would answer correctly.

Because language itself is inherently ambiguous and the model doesn’t actually understand anything about the world, it might turn out that there’s no universal way for a model to know what’s true or not.

I could also see a version of a model that is “locked down” but can verify the correctness of its statements, but in a way that limits its capabilities.

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a common view among some folks. Personally, I'm impartial. Search or even asking other expert human beings are prone to provide incorrect results. I'm unsure where this expectation of 100% absolute correctness comes from. I'm sure there are use cases, but I assume it's the vast minority and most can tolerate larger than expected inaccuracies.

> I'm unsure where this expectation of 100% absolute correctness comes from. It's a computer. That's why. Change the concept slightly: would you use a calculator if you had to wonder if the answer was correct or maybe it just made it up? Most people feel the same way about any computer based anything. I personally feel these inaccuracies/hallucinations/whatevs are only allowing them to be one rung up from practical j…

Speech to text is often wrong too. So is autocorrect. And object detection. Computers don't have to be 100% correct in order to be useful, as long as we don't put too much faith in them.

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a common view among some folks. Personally, I'm impartial. Search or even asking other expert human beings are prone to provide incorrect results. I'm unsure where this expectation of 100% absolute correctness comes from. I'm sure there are use cases, but I assume it's the vast minority and most can tolerate larger than expected inaccuracies.

> I'm unsure where this expectation of 100% absolute correctness comes from. It's a computer. That's why. Change the concept slightly: would you use a calculator if you had to wonder if the answer was correct or maybe it just made it up? Most people feel the same way about any computer based anything. I personally feel these inaccuracies/hallucinations/whatevs are only allowing them to be one rung up from practical j…

Okay, but search is done on a computer, and like the person you’re replying to said, we accept close enough.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your interpretation, but there’s a revealed preference thing going on.

The number of non-tech ppl I’ve heard directly reference ChatGPT now is absolutely shocking.

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a common view among some folks. Personally, I'm impartial. Search or even asking other expert human beings are prone to provide incorrect results. I'm unsure where this expectation of 100% absolute correctness comes from. I'm sure there are use cases, but I assume it's the vast minority and most can tolerate larger than expected inaccuracies.

Humans are imperfect, but this comes with some benefits to make up for it. First, we know they are imperfect. People seem to put more faith into machines, though I do sometimes see people being too trusting of other people. Second, we have methods for measuring their imperfection. Many people develop ways to tell when someone is answering with false or unjustified confidence, at least in fields they spend significant…

Absolutely! And fourth, we have ways to make sure the same error doesn't happen again; we can edit Wikipedia, or tell the person they were wrong (and stop listening to them if they keep being wrong).

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#165
If you've seen the video, it's very apparent it's a product video, not a tech demo. They cut out the latencies to make a compelling product video.

I wasn't at all under the impression they were showcasing TTS or low latencies as product features. I don't find the marketing misleading at all, and find these criticisms don't hit the mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIZAiXYceBI

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that failure cases are lower when interacting with humans? I don't think that's my experience at all. Maybe I've only ever seen terrible doctors but I always cross reference what doctors say with reputable sources like WebMD (which I understand likely contain errors). Sometimes I'll go straight to WebMD. This isn't a knock on doctors - they're humans and prone to errors. Lawyers, engineers, product…

You think you ask your legal assistant to find some precedents related to your current case and they will come back with an A4 page full of made up cases that sound vaguely related and convincing but are not real ? I don't think you understand the failure case at all.

That example seems a bit hyperbolic. Do you think lawyers who leverage ChatGPT will take the made up cases and present them to a judge without doing some additional research?

What I'm saying is that the tolerance for mistakes is strongly correlated to the value ChatGPT creates. I think both will need to be improved but there's probably more opportunity in creating higher value.

I don't have a horse in the race.

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#167
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with you on the confident lies. And it’s really tough. Technically the duck is made out of air and plastic right? If I pushed the model further on the composition of a rubber duck, and it failed to mention its construction, then it’d be lying. However there is this disgusting part of language where a statement can be misleading, technically true, not the whole truth, missing caveats etc. Very challeng…

Calling the air inside the duck (which is not sealed inside) part of its "material" would be misleading. That's not how most people would interpret the statement and I'm confident that's not the explanation for why the statement was made.

The air doesn’t matter. Even with a vacuum inside it would float. It’s the overall density of “the duck” that matters, not the density of the plastic.

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#168
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP says that Gemini had still images as input, not video - and the dev blog post shows it was instructed to reply to each input in relevant terms. Needless to say, that's quite different from what's implied in the demo, and at least theoretically is already within GPT's abilities.

How do you think the cup demo works? Lots of still images?

A few hand-picked images (search for "cup shuffling"): https://developers.googleblog.com/2023/12/how-its-made-gemin...

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#169

That's not the only thing wrong. Gemini makes a false statement in the video, serving as a great demonstration of how these models still outright lie so frequently, so casually, and so convincingly that you won't notice, even if you have a whole team of researchers and video editors reviewing the output. It's the single biggest problem with LLMs and Gemini isn't solving it. You simply can't rely on them when correctn…

This seems to be a common view among some folks. Personally, I'm impartial. Search or even asking other expert human beings are prone to provide incorrect results. I'm unsure where this expectation of 100% absolute correctness comes from. I'm sure there are use cases, but I assume it's the vast minority and most can tolerate larger than expected inaccuracies.

If it’s no better than asking a random person, then where is the hype? I already know lots of people who can give me free, maybe incorrect guesses to my questions.

At least we won’t have to worry about it obtaining god-like powers over our society…

Re: Gemini "duck" demo was not done in realtime or with voice

#170

That's not the only thing wrong. Gemini makes a false statement in the video, serving as a great demonstration of how these models still outright lie so frequently, so casually, and so convincingly that you won't notice, even if you have a whole team of researchers and video editors reviewing the output. It's the single biggest problem with LLMs and Gemini isn't solving it. You simply can't rely on them when correctn…

This seems to be a common view among some folks. Personally, I'm impartial. Search or even asking other expert human beings are prone to provide incorrect results. I'm unsure where this expectation of 100% absolute correctness comes from. I'm sure there are use cases, but I assume it's the vast minority and most can tolerate larger than expected inaccuracies.

Guessing from the last sentence that you are one of those "most" who "can tolerate larger than expected inaccuracies".

How much inaccuraciy would that be ?

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