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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

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Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#21

Post by hiatus »

tuwtuwtuwtuw wrote: post #10
hiatus wrote: post #5

Is PostNord like the post office or like fedex? If the former, that seems crazy to me. Imagine the post office just refused to deliver your electricity bill despite the electric company paying for a stamp. If it's the latter it makes a lot more sense.

It's the people who are on strike, not the company. Are people where you live not allowed to go on strike?

So you are okay with, say, the individuals of a fire department deciding not to put out a fire because they don't like someone? This is a public service we are talking about here.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#22

Post by ArchOversight »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #18
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Small differences in labor law make all the difference. In Finland, Tesla repair shops follow the minimums stated in collective agreements and Musk probably don't even know about it. In Sweden it's issue for him. Finland has generally applicable collective agreements where employers should observe at least the provisions of a national collective agreement considered representative in the relevant sector. When a colle…

At this point the famed Swedish model shows its limits, IMHO. > "It's about the Swedish collective agreement model, and there is a consensus on it, both politically and between the parties in the labour market, Seko's president Gabriella Lavecchia told Reuters by email. And yet this is not a legal obligation, as far as I understand, and Tesla is acting lawfully. So the model seems to be that there are unwritten rules…

There are unwritten rules everywhere. The nice thing is that when the unions in Sweden do strike unlike in the US where maybe they will get some support, there is massive groundswell of support behind them to actually get the company to make a change.

The fact that the whole country collectively agrees gives the workers far more power.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#23

Post by RandomLensman »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #18
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Small differences in labor law make all the difference. In Finland, Tesla repair shops follow the minimums stated in collective agreements and Musk probably don't even know about it. In Sweden it's issue for him. Finland has generally applicable collective agreements where employers should observe at least the provisions of a national collective agreement considered representative in the relevant sector. When a colle…

At this point the famed Swedish model shows its limits, IMHO. > "It's about the Swedish collective agreement model, and there is a consensus on it, both politically and between the parties in the labour market, Seko's president Gabriella Lavecchia told Reuters by email. And yet this is not a legal obligation, as far as I understand, and Tesla is acting lawfully. So the model seems to be that there are unwritten rules…

That kind of sounds like pretty much any society: lots of unwritten rules that can be costly to violate.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#24

Post by mongol »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #8
hiatus wrote: post #5

Is PostNord like the post office or like fedex? If the former, that seems crazy to me. Imagine the post office just refused to deliver your electricity bill despite the electric company paying for a stamp. If it's the latter it makes a lot more sense.

They are the national postal service, successor to the old Posten AB (which just means “The Post, Ltd”), and before that Postverket (“The Post Agency”). There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees).

What I find strange is that when a subset of employees strike, PostNord doesn't feel obligated to deliver at all, even though they have employees that are not part of the union and are not covered by the strike. This while PostNord has legal obligations to deliver mail.

Consider a "model factory" where 60 % of employees are union members. A strike is initiated and those 60% go on strike. It is reasonable to expect that production decreases with about 60%. In the PostNord case, the union member relationship is about on that level, and the registration plates probably fit in a small van. Still PostNord cannot see a way to meet their obligations even though there are plenty of employees that can deliver. If a non-union employee refuses, then their strike strike is wild and illegal.

I think the courts will see this, but it will take a while.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#25

Post by VoxPelli »

gafage wrote: post #3

Tesla should leave the market and let Swedes buy automobiles from their own brands... like... err... Saab which no longer exists... or Volvo, which now belongs to a Chinese conglomerate...

Volvo Cars is a company incorporated in Sweden and is traded on the Stockholm stock exchange. It does have a Chinese majority owner, but also large Swedish institutional investors and have to abide by Swedish corporate regulation and the regulations of the Stockholm stock exchange, so unfortunately it’s more complex than what you want it to be.

Polestar is in turn majority owned by Volvo Cars but also traded on the New York Stock Exchange, having to abide by rules there

Also, remember that time when Elon Musk claimed he would make Tesla private in cooperation with Saudi Arabia?

Also speaking of Saab: The Emily GT is set to start production in the old Saab factory soon, if/when that happens it looks like a solid Tesla Model S competitor.

Lastly: Remember the Tesla Semitruck? Well, Volvo and Scania is performing a bit better there… And Northvolt is supplying them batteries, and the Swedish carbon free steel will soon provide them great raw materials…

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#26

Post by VoxPelli »

hiatus wrote: post #21
tuwtuwtuwtuw wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the people who are on strike, not the company. Are people where you live not allowed to go on strike?

So you are okay with, say, the individuals of a fire department deciding not to put out a fire because they don't like someone? This is a public service we are talking about here.

Arbitrary discrimination can’t be compared to organized union strikes?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#27

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

mongol wrote: post #24
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are the national postal service, successor to the old Posten AB (which just means “The Post, Ltd”), and before that Postverket (“The Post Agency”). There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees).

What I find strange is that when a subset of employees strike, PostNord doesn't feel obligated to deliver at all, even though they have employees that are not part of the union and are not covered by the strike. This while PostNord has legal obligations to deliver mail. Consider a "model factory" where 60 % of employees are union members. A strike is initiated and those 60% go on strike. It is reasonable to expect th…

Striking is a constitutionally protected right in Sweden. The belief of PostNord is that the right of their employees to strike weighs higher than PostNord's obligation to deliver mail.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#28

Post by noirscape »

gafage wrote: post #3

Tesla should leave the market and let Swedes buy automobiles from their own brands... like... err... Saab which no longer exists... or Volvo, which now belongs to a Chinese conglomerate...

Tesla isn't the only car maker in existence. Hell, they're not even the only EV maker anymore these days and most car manufacturers aren't trying to brute force their way with how employee/employer relations are managed in a country they're not homed in.

I don't think Tesla ending up exiting the Swedish market is the owngoal you think it is for Sweden.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#29

Post by anonymouskimmer »

tuwtuwtuwtuw wrote: post #4
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Small differences in labor law make all the difference. In Finland, Tesla repair shops follow the minimums stated in collective agreements and Musk probably don't even know about it. In Sweden it's issue for him. Finland has generally applicable collective agreements where employers should observe at least the provisions of a national collective agreement considered representative in the relevant sector. When a colle…

According to Tesla, the agreement which employees have in Sweden is already better than the minimum bar set by union, so Teslas issues appears to more out of principle than out of actual issues with the agreement itself. Or Tesla is lying and the agreement with employees is not actually better.

Labor contracts cover a variety of issues, Tesla is cherry-picking their comparison IMO.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#30

Post by fl7305 »

tuwtuwtuwtuw wrote: post #4
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Small differences in labor law make all the difference. In Finland, Tesla repair shops follow the minimums stated in collective agreements and Musk probably don't even know about it. In Sweden it's issue for him. Finland has generally applicable collective agreements where employers should observe at least the provisions of a national collective agreement considered representative in the relevant sector. When a colle…

According to Tesla, the agreement which employees have in Sweden is already better than the minimum bar set by union, so Teslas issues appears to more out of principle than out of actual issues with the agreement itself. Or Tesla is lying and the agreement with employees is not actually better.

Does Tesla have a binding agreement with the workers on how to handle layoffs when business is bad?
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