111–120 of 126 posts
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Assuming electricity is already used for heating, baseboards heaters are just big resistors and have basically unlimited life.
.. but are way less efficient than heat pumps. It's all about cost of installation vs cost of use.
I’d pay a premium for a solid state AC or heat pump. It’s absurd how much they cost to install. And I don’t get why replacing one is an all day job for three people. There should be standard connections they just plug into. Like a dishwasher.
I was quoted 10k a head unit to install mini-splits in a home in the colorado mountains. I needed 8 head units. It was nothing but "only rich people are buying these right now so lets cash in" pricing
A large multi-zone installation (~20 rooms) with all-new duct work and natural gas backup in a major cold-weather US metro can be about $40K.
I’d pay a premium for a solid state AC or heat pump. It’s absurd how much they cost to install. And I don’t get why replacing one is an all day job for three people. There should be standard connections they just plug into. Like a dishwasher.
>And I don’t get why replacing one is an all day job for three people. Let's go through the whole process. You need a system changeout for a ducted central HVAC system. Someone comes over and gives a bid. You accept. Your HVAC person needs to go to a supply house and purchase all of the parts and bring them to your residence in a vehicle than can hold everything. Assuming you have an existing system, the refrigerant…
But not $10K for a mini-split.
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In Scandinavia we use air to air heat pumps. We generally don't have central heating of any kind so we aren't so tempted to try to shoehorn the heat pump into a system based on hot water. Air to air is much cheaper and is more efficient because it doesn't need to raise the temperature of the working fluid so much and doesn't require a big fluid to water heat exchanger. I'm having a Toshiba Polar 35 heat pump installe…
Do mean air-to-refrigerant-to-air or do you literally mean a big box with ducts coming out? The latter is called a “packaged terminal” heat pump in the US, and they haven’t really caught on except in cheap hotels.
So yes, air-to-refrigerant-to-air. But your packaged terminal heat pump is also air-to-refrigerant-to-air. Both are just refrigerators turned inside out.
"“Packaged terminal heat pump” means a packaged terminal air conditioner that utilizes reverse cycle refrigeration as its prime heat source, " [1]
[1] https://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/s...
Most heat pumps installed in dwellings in Norway are capable of cooling the building as well as heating it. This is the one that will be installed in my house (in Norwegian, Google does a good translation job): https://www.toshibavarmepumper.no/varmepumper-luft-luft/tosh...
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Do mean air-to-refrigerant-to-air or do you literally mean a big box with ducts coming out? The latter is called a “packaged terminal” heat pump in the US, and they haven’t really caught on except in cheap hotels.
It's two parts, the compressor in a box with a big fan on the outside and a box on the wall indoors containing a refrigerant to air heat exchanger and a fan. The two are connected by pipes, typically three or four metres long, containing the refrigerant. So yes, air-to-refrigerant-to-air. But your packaged terminal heat pump is also air-to-refrigerant-to-air. Both are just refrigerators turned inside out. "“Packaged…
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I was quoted 10k a head unit to install mini-splits in a home in the colorado mountains. I needed 8 head units. It was nothing but "only rich people are buying these right now so lets cash in" pricing
For 8 units? That sounds like good price.
https://www.acdirect.com/ductless-mini-splits/8-zone-mini-sp...
80k is hilarious. That’s a 70k install for pulling lines, charging them and maybe an electrical run and pad.
Even if you have to buy two or three systems the price is laughable.
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Well they're also inflammable and not as good as CFCs. Kinda how we don't use toxic ammonia as a refrigerant. For what it's worth, my mini fridge and my chest freezer use some hydrocarbon refrigerant. They're littered with warning signs not to puncture them.
> Kinda how we don't use toxic ammonia as a refrigerant. Ammonia is definitely still used as a refrigerant, just not in consumer equipment. It’s commonly used for ice rink chillers, at least in the US and Canada. Not sure about Europe.
that's key isn't it? Ammonia is corrosive and consumers are often not too bright.
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There are many YouTube videos of people installing heat pumps by themselves in a few hours. Your quotes are likely inflated by permit requirements and price discrimination. Keep in mind that heating with natgas is way cheaper for most Americans so the HVAC guys know that you have money to spare
> Keep in mind that heating with natgas is way cheaper for most Americans so the HVAC guys know that you have money to spare Where natgas can lose its lustre is on delivery/standing charges. And sometimes transmission and distribution charges (those usually scale with use, but can make cheap gas expensive). On smaller/well insulated homes, the fixed gas connection cost can really improve heat pumps economics if you'r…
Of course the maintenance costs and the amortized cost of infra is a much larger proportion of the gas bill, but the utility can't pass that on to customers as a fixed monthly fee. Gov't tariffs usually make that illegal
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> Keep in mind that heating with natgas is way cheaper for most Americans so the HVAC guys know that you have money to spare Where natgas can lose its lustre is on delivery/standing charges. And sometimes transmission and distribution charges (those usually scale with use, but can make cheap gas expensive). On smaller/well insulated homes, the fixed gas connection cost can really improve heat pumps economics if you'r…
AFAIK the fixed cost of keeping a gas line active is ~$4/mo in most places and many homes still need gas for stoves and dryers so I expect ~0% of Americans to cancel gas in the next decade Of course the maintenance costs and the amortized cost of infra is a much larger proportion of the gas bill, but the utility can't pass that on to customers as a fixed monthly fee. Gov't tariffs usually make that illegal
Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Scandinavia we use air to air heat pumps. We generally don't have central heating of any kind so we aren't so tempted to try to shoehorn the heat pump into a system based on hot water. Air to air is much cheaper and is more efficient because it doesn't need to raise the temperature of the working fluid so much and doesn't require a big fluid to water heat exchanger. I'm having a Toshiba Polar 35 heat pump installe…
which refrigerant is used in this?
"Difluoromethane, also called difluoromethylene, HFC-32 Methylene Fluoride or R-32, " [2]
[1] https://www.toshibavarmepumper.no/globalassets/inriver/resou...