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Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

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Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#341

Post by SigmundurM »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #145
kristofferR wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that proper unions are pretty baffling from a US perspective, where people don't mind having thousands peeing in bottles at work at Amazon as long as they get the spoon they ordered the next day. Us Scandinavians on the other hand find it pretty baffling that someone would just roll over to a megalomaniac who clearly states he would like to destroy what makes our countries great, our unions and working conditio…

I think you do not understand the basic fact that the people peeing in bottles are not working there against their will. As bad as it may be or sound, people choose to voluntarily work there. But sure, go fight your fight with the megalomaniac...

Capitalism is voluntary. Get bread, or get dead...

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#342

Post by lelanthran »

simion314 wrote: post #323
lelanthran wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As software developers we should do the same when we are asked to take part on building harfull shit, as an individual we have no power, if I refuse someone else will be paid to do it but as a union we could do some good Who gets to decide what is harmful and what is not? Me? You? Your proposal won't go anywhere because you won't agree with others on what is harmful and what is not.

>Your proposal won't go anywhere because you won't agree with others on what is harmful and what is not. Maybe in some groups we can achieve a consensus. Say 80% of developers at a company think that the new feature of addicting kids on some game mechanic is harmful? I am not referring to the stupid culture war in USA, so when I suggest this I am not attacking your political opinions.

> Say 80% of developers at a company think that the new feature of addicting kids on some game mechanic is harmful?

Who cares? The company will just get someone from the other 20% to develop it. Or contract it out.

What is your proposal for stopping a company from developing something you think is harmful? You can't very well complain that other developers have to agree with your opinions[1], after all.

[1] Whether something is harmful or not is simply your opinion. If that something is a fact, then there's probably a law against it, so there's no need to prevent other developers from developing it.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#343

Post by Fiahil »

holgerschurig wrote: post #119
epolanski wrote: post #12

From what I understand the strikers aren't asking for more money or anything specific other than Tesla to honor collective bargaining with unions Tesla cannot have different deals with different shops, has to respect what it agrees with unions.

German news media clearly say that it's not about DIRECT asking for more money. In Europe a lot of countries have a system of "Tarifvertrag" ("tarrif contract", but really "collective agreement"). In such contracts the workers union of a section (e.g. metal) do a contract with the business union of the employers. They settle then down to "give 28 days of holidays and x EUR per month to each" ... and then they won't s…

From my understanding of your description, "Tarifvertrag", is more like a "convention collective" in France.

If that's the case, then Tesla would have been subject to the CC as well, regardless of the unionised status of the employees.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#344

Post by eggy »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #304
eggy wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and if Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, are for the people, let the people decide whether want to buy a Tesla and support Elon. Cutting off shipping to their rightful owners sounds like you are curtailing your own citizens from living as they please. Would be interesting if they and other countries unions had stopped the shipments of iPhones to their citizen consumers due to the working conditions and no unions a…

> let the people decide whether want to buy a Tesla and support Elon. Okay, let's let the people decide whether they want to buy heroin and support violent cartels. Let's take the same approach to slavery. Or fire safety of buildings. In fact, can you name 1 occasion in history when a consumer boycott stopped any kind of bad corporate behaviour - it does not even stop child slavery.

Wow, from an anti- to pro-union discussion and allowing people to purchase products that are currently and legally on the market for purchase in their country, and let a mob of workers come in between that contract, to heroin and violent cartels, slavery, and fire safety.

Do you agree with the legal sale of alcohol then? Over 80% of violent crimes involve it. Prohibition didn't work, did it? Personally, I don't drink, but hey, you can drink yourself to death as long as you don't drive and hurt me or others - DUIs, violence, etc...

The unions will fall in Scandinavia once the countries become less homogeneous as much as some fight it. They are already declining in number and you can't blame Elon.

While your at it, according to your logic, they should put curfews on citizens going out at the hours surrounding noon and midnight to prevent crime, since so much of it takes place at that time. You don't want to support violent crime do you? While your at it, ban alcohol and end government taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, because bad, and people are infants to be raised by Big Brother.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#345

Post by waihtis »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #339
derelicta wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just invented cooperatives. Which is indeed a significant part of what communists wish to achieve. Now you gotta wonder: is workplace democracy such a bad thing?

> is workplace democracy such a bad thing? Yes, they're called committees. They're wildly inefficient for fundamental reasons [1]. We tolerate them in government, because when it comes to the state, we've learned that being consistently right is more important than being efficient. That's not the case in commerce. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm

The amount of openly communistic commenters on HN is both hilarious and concerning at the same time.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#346

Post by eddtries »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #337
eddtries wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't really choose to work, we work because we need to afford food and get health care and rent housing etc. If you live in a town where the job you can get is at Amazon then you don't really "voluntarily" work there, and considering it's pretty simple stuff that hires anyone this is probably the case.

> People don't really choose to work, we work because we need to afford food and get health care and rent housing Almost everyone on HN can live to standards that would have been between comfortable and luxurious a hundred years ago, possibly even in a developed country. (The median world wage--assuming a 40-hour work week with 2 weeks off, which is not the median working schedule--is $5/day [1].) This doesn't underm…

Which is why I find it somewhat sickening when people argue that those who have to pee in bottles to meet KPIs for low wages are able to just go and find other work. People are out of touch on HN.

I'm lucky, I can go find other work and live without working for a while.

Someone on the poverty line working a warehouse job for health insurance to cover their diabetes in America is not able to "just move to a new place" like a sibling comment stated. The real goal should be to raise the bottom line up so even the poorest have a decent standard of living which is how the Nordic countries behave.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#347

Post by waihtis »

avgcorrection wrote: post #335
waihtis wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the preferred company structure of all economic juggernauts, such as Venezuela.

So first you sarcastically deride worker-governed companies as being a reinvention of entreneurship (capitalist). Then you deride it as being like “Venezuela” (socialist bogeyman). I can’t make heads or tails of this.

No, I'm choosing not to embrace some random subcategory of entrepreneurism you're trying hamfistedly promote. I have no problem with a group of people coming together to form a company, on the contrary it needs to be promoted and celebrated much more as an idea, but only if it lives and dies by market forces.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#348

Post by simion314 »

lelanthran wrote: post #342
simion314 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your proposal won't go anywhere because you won't agree with others on what is harmful and what is not. Maybe in some groups we can achieve a consensus. Say 80% of developers at a company think that the new feature of addicting kids on some game mechanic is harmful? I am not referring to the stupid culture war in USA, so when I suggest this I am not attacking your political opinions.

> Say 80% of developers at a company think that the new feature of addicting kids on some game mechanic is harmful? Who cares? The company will just get someone from the other 20% to develop it. Or contract it out. What is your proposal for stopping a company from developing something you think is harmful? You can't very well complain that other developers have to agree with your opinions[1], after all. [1] Whether s…

>Whether something is harmful or not is simply your opinion. If that something is a fact, then there's probably a law against it, so there's no need to prevent other developers from developing it.

Cigarettes are harmful and are legal.

It is not an easy as you think, I worked at a small company in a emote team, there was proposed that we all need to install spying software on our computers so we can be better monitored. Everyone in the team refused and the bad stuff did not happen, we were not replaced with a new team. But if it was only one guy he could be replace but good luck replacing 80% of your developers like they are are some pre-made lego bricks you can swap out.

You might be right, maybe developers should instead work on proposing legislation for banning harmful stuff and keep unions focused on work conditions.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#349

Post by JumpCrisscross »

waihtis wrote: post #345
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is workplace democracy such a bad thing? Yes, they're called committees. They're wildly inefficient for fundamental reasons [1]. We tolerate them in government, because when it comes to the state, we've learned that being consistently right is more important than being efficient. That's not the case in commerce. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm

The amount of openly communistic commenters on HN is both hilarious and concerning at the same time.

> openly communistic

I don't think worker-owned companies are communist. Until recently, investment banks and law firms were predominantly structured as partnerships.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#350

Post by bitshiftfaced »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #46
bitshiftfaced wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as much about the Swedish unions not wanting a new precedent set as it is about Tesla not wanting a new precedent set.

> Tesla not wanting a new precedent set Like respecting local laws and customs? Same people who deride local laws in Europe get really worked up when someone tries it in US.

What Swedish law did Tesla disrespect?
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