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Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

wolfstreet.com

41–50 of 184 posts

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#41
post #14

Clickbaiting heading. The price is still 300% compared to the low in August 2020.

I don't find it clickbaity at all. I mean, it makes it sound like the price of lithium dropped massively, but isn't that exactly what happened?

I think the difference is in what a drop is in regards to. A drop of a well established price indicates something has fundamentally changed to make the price go down. A drop from the peak of a large increase that is still far above the previous well established price looks more like something has fundamentally changed to make the price go up, but markets over estimated how much the price would increase. The difference is that the new price, assuming it becomes the new well established price, is lower in one situation and higher in the other. A title implying the former case when it is the latter might fall under the scope of clickbait.

If the price is swinging up and down constantly and there is no well established price, then that is yet another situation which seems different from the previous two and the title might be better off capturing the unsteady nature of the price.

If I make a major story that "X happened three times this year" without pointing out in the title that the historic numbers of X is 2 to 4 each year, it can be treated as a dishonest implication of some trend that doesn't exist. We know many will only read headlines and will not question the implications. This is something worth calling out even when it is over trivial matters to prevent it from being used for more serious matters.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#42
post #35

As famously predicted by Julian Simon back in the 70s and 80s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon–Ehrlich_wager

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the article points out it's just good old fashioned speculation in the commodities market! Clearly there was a massive bubble over the past couple of years driven by hype. The spot price is still higher than 2020

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#43
post #2

> CNY per tonne I somewhat expected USD but i'm not surprised. Times change.

Over half of lithium is refined in China and then sold. Since those refining costs are in domestic CNY, it makes perfect sense that the commodities price will also be quoted in CNY. Nothing to do with "times changing", everything to do with country of production. (Most commodities aren't so tied to a single country, which is why they end up in USD.)

[deleted]

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium is <10% cost of a battery. Presumably much less now. Doesn't affect the price of EVs that much yet.

What makes up the majority of the cost?

Other expensive materials in the cathode, manufacturing costs, and the anode are most of the major costs. A visualization:

https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/breaking-down-the-cost...

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#46
post #8

This is fantastic news, and means the price of EVs and large utility scale batteries will continue to fall much faster than anyone predicted.

Lithium is <10% cost of a battery. Presumably much less now. Doesn't affect the price of EVs that much yet.

Was it <10% at peak price as well?

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#47

Is it sodium battery tech starting to have an effect?

Nope, just good old speculation in the commodities market!

That doesn't exclude sodium batteries as a factor. Quite the opposite imo, since that technology is also highly speculative.

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, let's run the world economy off a currency that could halve in value if Satoshi Nakamoto finds an old USB drive sitting around somewhere.

I suppose this is a better arrangement than the current system, where they key figures know exactly where the money printer is at all times.

[deleted]

Re: Lithium “shortage” bubble implodes again

#49
I think it would be highly interesting if physicists/scientists could figure out how to create Lithium in the lab, maybe from Helium -- or some esoteric combination of Helium, Helium isotopes, Hydrogen, Hydrogen isotopes -- and/or energy...

Now that I think about it, maybe it would be possible to make Lithium from a heavier element -- such as Beryllium (the next element in Lithium's period/horizontal row) and/or Sodium (the next element in Lithium's group/family/vertical row -- that is, an element whose properties are the most similar to Lithium).

But, the point is, if scientists or future scientists can do that -- then we can end this Lithium debate once and for all!

Oh sure, it may initially cost, like, trillions of dollars to do this in the lab the first couple of times (the history of using particle accelerators to transmute metals is a case study in cost ineffectiveness -- but then, so is the history of early mainframe computers, and so is the history of using rockets to send satellites to orbit) but eventually with continued experimentation, the cost should become cheaper and cheaper...

First you make it work -- then you make it cheap.

You know, the Elon Musk school of business philosophy...

First you make it work -- then you make it cheap... or at least cheaper...

Which was actually, coincidentally, Henry Ford's philosophy -- and that of the early American capitalists (AKA, "The Robber Barons" -- as well)...

Also, I'd put that simple philosophy against anything that anyone could learn in a Harvard, Stanford or Wharton MBA program (*) for $73,440 and one or two years of their life, plus living expenses!

First you make it work -- then you make it cheap...

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