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The 501 Developer Manifesto

501manifesto.org

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Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#51

Post by driverdan »

bfirsh wrote: post #38
zacharyvoase wrote: post #31

“It’s just a job.” It's just 8 hours a day. 5 days a week. Roughly 25% of your life. Another 33.3% is spent asleep. Maybe you commute to work; maybe that takes you 45 minutes each way. That's 4.4% of your life spent driving, walking, on trains or buses to get to your job. You're going to spend a small percentage of your life on the toilet; another small percentage in supermarkets buying food, in a kitchen preparing i…

Not everyone who programs loves programming, but everyone needs to make a living. You are lucky that what you love also makes money.

Make a living doing something you love. If you don't love programming then do something else.

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#52

Post by moocow01 »

I think we need more of this. In the context of employment (meaning you are not a 'true' owner), I genuinely have a hard time understanding why so many are so good at sabotaging themselves. Its as if we need a primer in worker economics before going into the workforce.

Obviously simple rule... the more you work for a flat rate (salary) the more you lower your pay. Second simple rule... the more you work for a flat rate (salary) the larger the opportunity cost. There are probably better things you could be doing for yourself after 5 - things like oh I don't know... have friends, family, start a business (that potentially does NOT have a salary cap), learn new skills, etc. etc.

I see this attitude pop up all the time where there are groups of folks who feel that everyone that is an employee who works normal hours should be thrown out of the profession. From my perspective, this is an unfortunately toxic attitude in that it degrades everyone as a whole and collectively detracts from our value.

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#53

Post by moocow01 »

pnathan wrote: post #45

I don't really want to work with people who are unmotivated and just "Do their time and go". I've done it; I've worked in crappy jobs. Those jobs were, e.g., cashier at fast food joint. Or stocker at department store. Everyone wanted to leave. No one wanted to be there. I am not really up to dealing with the harsh cynicism and assumptions of uselessness of our work with someone who leaves as soon as possible. Doesn't…

I totally agree but to play devil's advocate why does motivation have to correspond with working late into the night? In fact I'd argue that a motivated team should be able to get their 'share' done in less than 8 hours a day.

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#54

Post by pseale »

A lot of people in the comments here miss the context: this was written by Microsoft ecosystem developers.

Some of the items on the list specifically target Microsoft MVPs and Regional Directors, the shots at "snacks" and "T-shirts" aim at Microsoft community events, and the rest target standard corporate development dysfunction.

If there's one positive takeaway from this post, it's the bit of the end that warns you to treat your 501 teammates well.

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#55

Post by Tangaroa »

Does anybody really look down on employees who leave work at the time that they agreed to leave work when they took the job? I can't imagine this being a problem, although I can see the desire for employees who value the work more than they value keeping to a strict schedule. An interesting problem would often keep me working late, and I would feel guilty for billing the company for unauthorized overtime when I could have left on time. I've never encountered an expectation for employees to routinely stay later than 5:00, or by the same logic, an expectation for employees to come in a long while earlier than their starting time.

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#56

Post by astine »

driverdan wrote: post #51
bfirsh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone who programs loves programming, but everyone needs to make a living. You are lucky that what you love also makes money.

Make a living doing something you love. If you don't love programming then do something else.

"Make a living doing something you love."

That is ideal, but it is not always feasible. There are some things nobody likes doing, but somebody's got to do them. I'm fortunate that I like programming and that people will pay me to do it, but not everyone is so lucky.

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#57

Post by jneen »

I've posted this here before, but I think it bears restating.

If you work as a software engineer in California and have a salary of less than about 81K, you are entitled to overtime pay.

See the law here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab... (section 515.5), with 2011 and 2012 numbers here: http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlsr/ComputerSoftware.pdf

I am not a lawyer, so do your own research please. But the gist is, if you want developers who will work lots of free overtime, you have to pay them as such.

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#58

Post by SkippyZA »

In my opinion, people who love programming and spend they free time programming as a 'hobby' are normally a lot better developers with a thirst to better themselves. I see this at work. Plenty of our devs program as a job, but those who have a genuine interest in programming are capable of a lot more.

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#59

Post by skmurphy »

This reminds me of Scott Adams "New Company Model OA5 Out at 5pm" model from the last chapter of his "Dilbert Principle" http://www.amazon.com/The-Dilbert-Principle-Cubicles-Eye-Aff... on-line at http://mdsalunkhe.tripod.com/dilbert.htm

   Out at Five

   I developed a conceptual model for a perfect company.      
   The primary objective of this company is to make employees as effective 
   as possible. The best products usually come from the most effective employees, 
   so employee effectiveness is the most fundamental of the fundamentals.

   The goal of the hypothetical company is to get the best work out of 
   the employees and make sure they leave work by five o’ clock. Finishing by 
   five o’clock is so central to everything that follows that I named the 
   company OA5 (Out at five) to reinforce the point. 

   If you let his part of the concept slip, the rest of it falls apart.

   The goal of OA5 is to guarantee that the employee who leaves at 5 PM 
   has done a full share of work and everybody realizes it.  For that to 
   happen an OA5 company has to do things differently than an ordinary company.
also discussed in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3309820 and submitted as http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=140712 four years ago

Re: The 501 Developer Manifesto

#60

Post by moocow01 »

agentultra wrote: post #47
vasco wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would get payed if you stayed longer? Here (Portugal) it's common practice for every kind of dev to work overtime with no extra pay, it's seen as a trait of the job and it's not just when there's a huge deadline, because there always is.

I have worked in places where overtime was just a part of the job and I didn't last in such places for very long. I have at times had to suffer such treatment because I needed the paycheck even if I wasn't getting paid extra for the extra hours. However there was still the choice to leave such a job and deal with the consequences. On one occasion I wasn't even given the choice. It was expected and I didn't live up to…

I think your end point is a key point. If you are in a situation to do so, skip the BMW/big house etc and shoot for more financial independence - by that I mean just having some savings to make you comfortable as a first step. It will vastly change your ability to say 'no', 'I quit', or 'Im going home because its late'
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