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Sexism

kswizz.com

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Re: Sexism

#41

Post by Zikes »

mwcremer wrote: post #38
Zikes wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on all points except the endorsement of Etsy's initiative. I understand that affirmative action-type efforts can lead to changes which are favorable to the oppressed class, however they are still inherently hypocritical in that they shift that oppression to the opposing class. The popular argument is that once this has been done enough times, the two classes will end up on relatively equal footing and society…

I have struggled with this dichotomy for many years. I still feel that "affirmative action" is inherently discriminatory. But I too can offer no alternative to foster change. Considering the circumstances http://www.samefacts.com/2012/04/msm-mainstream-media/womens... I reluctantly accept that the end justifies the means.

I'm thinking I'll probably have to accept the same. I can't rightly argue against it unless I can offer up an alternative, and the need for change is significant enough.

I'd feel a lot better about it if it were at least acknowledged as such by the class it promotes, though.

Re: Sexism

#42

Post by dongle »

Who's going to write 'Privilege 101' for HN?

touches nose

[don't make me do it, 'cause I'll do it if you make me.]

Re: Sexism

#44

Post by WalterSear »

DanBC wrote: post #13
skylan_q wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody thinks the artificial equalization provided by things like affirmative action actually is equality" Do you really think that if women dominated tech, people would be clamoring for more men in it? The few nurses I know have no trouble with the lack of men in their profession. Maybe they're just sexist?

I know a few people who are concerned about the lack of men in primary education (UK - ages 4 to 11) or in nursing and other work.

Yup, a few.

Re: Sexism

#45

Post by effigies »

Zikes wrote: post #34
icandoitbetter wrote: post #20

This person is ostensibly is in favor of gender equality, but he believes that the problem has been overstated and it will simply solve itself. He believes that the world has become more gender-equal in the past decades not because of the relentless struggle of radical feminists, but because somehow men decided to become more civilized. Power struggles are a concept that's alien to him. He's too young to know about a…

I agree on all points except the endorsement of Etsy's initiative. I understand that affirmative action-type efforts can lead to changes which are favorable to the oppressed class, however they are still inherently hypocritical in that they shift that oppression to the opposing class. The popular argument is that once this has been done enough times, the two classes will end up on relatively equal footing and society…

> they are still inherently hypocritical in that they shift that oppression to the opposing class.

Calling affirmative action oppression of the "opposing class" (by which you presumably mean the privileged group) is serious decontextualization, ignoring the entire history of the two groups of people and pretending that the moment in which you compare two individuals is all that matters. The fact is there is a systemic bias against un- or under-privileged groups such that the privileged person will almost always perform better on even an objective assessment, so affirmative action is a systematic correction.

In order for a privileged person and an un-privileged person to be even within spitting distance of one another academically or professionally requires a hell of a lot more work on the part of the un-privileged person, no matter how hard the privileged person worked. Affirmative action recognizes this and rewards that work despite the decontextualizing "objective" assessments that would give the reward to the higher achiever, basically placing a bet that in aggregate, giving these people more opportunity will result in better results.

Will there be errors? Sure. But it's a bit rich to complain about white boys being oppressed by women and minorities.

Re: Sexism

#46

Post by KuraFire »

mwcremer wrote: post #38
Zikes wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on all points except the endorsement of Etsy's initiative. I understand that affirmative action-type efforts can lead to changes which are favorable to the oppressed class, however they are still inherently hypocritical in that they shift that oppression to the opposing class. The popular argument is that once this has been done enough times, the two classes will end up on relatively equal footing and society…

I have struggled with this dichotomy for many years. I still feel that "affirmative action" is inherently discriminatory. But I too can offer no alternative to foster change. Considering the circumstances http://www.samefacts.com/2012/04/msm-mainstream-media/womens... I reluctantly accept that the end justifies the means.

Affirmative Action[1] is not discriminatory, but it is inherently _exclusionary_.

Discrimination:

> the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex

Is Affirmative Action unjust? No, it is justified by the vast wealth of research backing it and pointing to its success in changing the status quo towards a more equal environment. Is AA prejudiced? No, because prejudice is about not being based on reason or actual experience, and AA is very specifically based on both reason and past experiences.

Being left out of a group that is openly being exclusive may not feel right or sit well on your mind, but that doesn’t inherently make it a case of discrimination. AA can be an exclusive treatment based on gender, but it is neither unjust nor prejudicial, thus it is not discriminatory.

Hope that helps clear up the distinction for you! :)

[1] This is partly why it is no longer called “Positive Discrimination”—because that term is inherently oxymoronic—and instead is known as "Positive Action" elsewhere.

Re: Sexism

#47

Post by Svirfneblin »

hej wrote: post #25

What an ignorant fool. This article doesn’t say much (except that sexism is super awesome which I don’t think deserves a response) but the one he linked to (about hypocrisy) is incredibly bad ( http://kswizz.com/post/8275502957/hypocrisy ). Facebook has very liberal fields for all kinds of stuff. It’s no problem to say that you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster (9,573 fans) or Russel’s Teapot (86 fans). Like Je…

Actually, it is possible to remove the field entirely, which I'm grateful for as a non-gendered individual.

But yeah, I do wish you didn't have to even select anything.

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