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Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

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Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#301

Post by fl7305 »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #279
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are not, surprisingly. That's absolutely insane. One would think the Nordics would be a bit morse sensible on this. Here in Austria they are mandatory between November and April even if you live in places that don't see much snow. Yeah, it's an added expense and PITA but when the snow does come it's overall way safer.

“The Nordics” isn’t a single government so it’s weird to group them like this. Denmark, Sweden and Norway get very different amounts of snowfall so it’s unsurprising they don’t have all the same policies.

Turns out the law is the same in Denmark and Sweden for this.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#302

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ehvatum wrote: post #83
marricks wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he wouldn’t get into so many mudslinging fights if he just cared about being famous. He desperately wants to be liked and thought of as cool.

There is a melancholy, defeated aspect to saying someone with such notable imagination and success as Elon is motivated only by insecurity.

It's possible that Elon in his 20's was a better person than Elon today. People change, and not always for the better. In Particular, get drunk on power, surrounded by yes men, etc.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#303

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #148
marricks wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MANY things he does are explicitly to be liked. That’s why he posts all the time, goes on interviews, shows up on SNL. Buys a social media company then burns company hours on figuring out why he isn’t the most viewed person on it. He really, really, wants to be internet liked, that’s he claims he doesn’t care about.

I find it funny that you think he should not be able to do whatever he wants with his companies. He bought Twitter and it was his prerogative to direct everyone there to tell him why he's not number one on that platform. He did not buy Twitter to make money.

> He did not buy Twitter to make money.

Is that what he told the banks when he was taking out the loan to buy Twitter?

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#304

Post by ClumsyPilot »

eggy wrote: post #84
andsoitis wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If he wants to be remembered as the dude global labor had to organize against, I mean, the bar is already pretty low where he's at but perhaps we have yet to hit bedrock. Probably with a bit to be said about dying a hero or living long enough to become the villain through the appropriate lens. Highly recommend watching the full interview that Andrew Ross Sorkin did with Elon Musk (it is the one where he told advert…

Agreed, and if Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, are for the people, let the people decide whether want to buy a Tesla and support Elon. Cutting off shipping to their rightful owners sounds like you are curtailing your own citizens from living as they please. Would be interesting if they and other countries unions had stopped the shipments of iPhones to their citizen consumers due to the working conditions and no unions a…

> let the people decide whether want to buy a Tesla and support Elon.

Okay, let's let the people decide whether they want to buy heroin and support violent cartels. Let's take the same approach to slavery. Or fire safety of buildings.

In fact, can you name 1 occasion in history when a consumer boycott stopped any kind of bad corporate behaviour - it does not even stop child slavery.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#305

Post by avgcorrection »

waihtis wrote: post #266
derelicta wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I be sarcastic? I just think that if taxation without representation is theft, so must be wealth-creation without representation. But thankfully workers aren't mere wheels, and they can design the said framework themselves! Pretty much like peasants got to imagine parliements so as to gain the natural right to rule over themselves, despite kings and lords trying to convince them it was a silly and dangerous…

> they can design the said framework themselves Congratulations, you have just invented entrepreneurship

Congratulations, you have no idea what worker-owned+governed businesses are.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#306

Post by filoleg »

black_puppydog wrote: post #147
Havelock wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately either side can't blink. IF Metall can't back down because then other companies could get ideas to leave. And Elmu doesn't want to back down because then other countries could get ideas about unionising which would affect their bottom line.

tells you a lot about where we are, if one dude is trying (and reasonably expecting) to stare down entire countries...

More like, one company is trying (and reasonably expecting) to stare down a few unions across 3 countries, with each one of the countries individually having a smaller GDP than the market cap of that company.

Yeah, I am kinda seeing that expectation to be pretty realistic.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#307

Post by filoleg »

jplrssn wrote: post #263
contrarian1234 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the clarification! Super interesting. I'm curious about how it works. Do they have to actually be on strike? B/c it sounds like in this scenario they don't loose/risk anything (wages/employment). Can the employees be fired for not doing their jobs? Can the police union also refuse to protect Tesla property/workers? Or like the public transit union? Where do they draw the line in Sweden? I've never heard of…

Unions can't force their members (or non-members) to strike, except for the fact that if as a member you refuse to join a strike organised by your union you might be expelled. Attempting an individual strike without the backing of a union would leave you no protection from retaliation and would likely get you fired. The unions themselves are relatively limited in how and when they can organise legal strikes. Employer…

> Unions can't force their members (or non-members) to strike, except for the fact that if as a member you refuse to join a strike organised by your union you might be expelled.

Unless I am heavily misreading, “we organized a strike, and if you don’t join us, you are expelled from the union” sounds exactly like a union forcing its members to strike.

What other kind of “forced to strike” scenario were you imagining? Union leaders holding those refusing to strike at a gunpoint? Because other than extreme examples like this one, it sounds like a textbook version of forcing members to strike.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#308

Post by jplrssn »

filoleg wrote: post #307
jplrssn wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions can't force their members (or non-members) to strike, except for the fact that if as a member you refuse to join a strike organised by your union you might be expelled. Attempting an individual strike without the backing of a union would leave you no protection from retaliation and would likely get you fired. The unions themselves are relatively limited in how and when they can organise legal strikes. Employer…

> Unions can't force their members (or non-members) to strike, except for the fact that if as a member you refuse to join a strike organised by your union you might be expelled. Unless I am heavily misreading, “we organized a strike, and if you don’t join us, you are expelled from the union” sounds exactly like a union forcing its members to strike. What other kind of “forced to strike” scenario were you imagining? U…

Historically it wasn't uncommon to attempt to physically prevent strikebreakers from crossing the picket line.

Most if not all organisations have standards of conduct that they expect their members to follow, and its not surprising that unions view strikebreaking ("scabbing") as being contrary to those standards.

But seeing as the whole point of unions is organised action, why would you want to be a member if you weren't interested in participating in that action?

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#309

Post by yetanother12345 »

grotorea wrote: post #276
kristofferR wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not state-run though, it's a normal private company, just one where the governments own all the shares. They are still profit driven, like most state-owned companies in Scandinavia.

And if there is public protest about delivery prices increasing the government won't order the board to stop it and pretend to forget profitability?

LOL. But you're excused.

In Denmark the government just took away all subsidies to the PostNord company. Prices will double next year, and some areas will not be served at all. Mind you there is no alternative for common mail, only for parcel delivery.

Re: Norway Joins Denmark in Swedish Tesla Strike/Blockade

#310

Post by yetanother12345 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #19
bitshiftfaced wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as much about the Swedish unions not wanting a new precedent set as it is about Tesla not wanting a new precedent set.

Elon simply doesn't believe in unions and wants to operate like a dictatorship (his public personal history has a substantial paper trail on this matter, both with personal and business relationships). It works until enough people say no. Certainly, just as Elon disagrees with the idea of unions, there are likely enough folks who disagree with the idea of Elon. If he wants to be remembered as the dude global labor ha…

> Elon simply doesn't believe ...

IMHO the focus here on HN and elsewhere on the antics of this person leads the debate astray somewhat. (Actually on every single activity this man is involved with, not just cars.) I do not find it beneficial.

Tesla is a multinational multi-million corporation trying to compete in a market that is undergoing a technological revolution. And, a very American corporation at that (as in not exactly guided by an European value set). Tesla is not one single man. If you want understanding you should consider that.

As for the current situation in Scandinavia, this company will have to adapt or go home eventually. Option two is not really an option, so they will adapt. Pressure against them goes only one way from here, up. Same for loss in profits. It started in one country, now they already face trouble in three.

"When in Rome..."

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