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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#301

Post by polski-g »

acdha wrote: post #288
polski-g wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By prohibiting African Python programmers from taking part because of their political views, how does that promote "diverse and international communities"? Are anti-LGBT Africans not diverse enough?

Nobody is prohibited from attending based on their political views. It’s only a question of whether those views cause someone to negatively impact other attendees that they have a problem. You can be completely anti-LGBT as long as you’re mature enough to only talk about Python at a Python conference.

They're not funding entire conferences because of how a country decides to vote, even though it has nothing to do with Python or programming.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#302

Post by Timon3 »

diiolk wrote: post #297
Timon3 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you don't think there will be any problems if someone who outwardly has male features (e.g. a beard) walks into a female bathroom? Everyone will just be fine and say "Oh, they are probably transgender, no worries"?

[flagged]

No, they are not "without issue". Since the trans discourse has picked up, there have been many cases of these people being targeted and attacked due to "using the wrong bathroom".

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#303

Post by eithed »

darkerside wrote: post #70

This is probably a silly question, but why did they plan the conference and set a date before they knew they had funding? Wouldn't it make more sense to confirm the grant first, and then start planning the event? The letter comes off as pretty entitled. My guess is that while there may be some unconscious bias at play here, there is also probably groundwork that could have been better laid. Perhaps European organizer…

I think that they knew they had funding, so they started organising it without having money. Then transfer took longer than expected, so organisers had to shell out the money themselves

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#304

Post by acdha »

polski-g wrote: post #301
acdha wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is prohibited from attending based on their political views. It’s only a question of whether those views cause someone to negatively impact other attendees that they have a problem. You can be completely anti-LGBT as long as you’re mature enough to only talk about Python at a Python conference.

They're not funding entire conferences because of how a country decides to vote, even though it has nothing to do with Python or programming.

It does have to do with people being free and safe to attend, however. If you see freedom as additive, that’s consistent: the PSF doesn’t want to be associated with conferences which are risky for some people to attend. That doesn’t mean that a different conference can’t be organized, only that they are uncomfortable supporting less free places. I’m fine with that as long as it applies to U.S. states which fail the same concerns.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#305

Post by itishappy »

grotorea wrote: post #202
niam wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question…

> Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I really think this is a view that only makes sense in stable countries with strong rule of law, which I don't think is the case for most of the world. And even in the First World. Are Americans in states that legalized marijuana afraid of a random cop arresting them due to it being federally illegal? Is the average European concerned of being arrested for movie…

> Are Americans in states that legalized marijuana afraid of a random cop arresting them due to it being federally illegal?

Yes. Not from street cops, but you better believe I'm concerned about airport security. You'll probably be safe, but I would not recommend a non-US person to test this. It's unreasonable to expect outsiders to understand which laws are enforced, particularly when the consequences of being wrong may include life imprisonment or death.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#306

Post by leadingthenet »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #286
leadingthenet wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That looks like the rule of law working as expected to me?

You do realize that 20 years ago it was wrong to be gay in various US states, right? And I'm saying this with the consideration that most of the world sees the US as the most advanced country on the planet.

The rule of law was correctly implemented. Whether the law was morally correct or not is completely orthogonal to that fact.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#307

Post by nomdep »

colpabar wrote: post #287
nomdep wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think is unreasonable at all. Anyone can do a conference wherever, the PSF just don't want to sponsor conferences in places under those conditions

But this is exactly like sanctioning a country ruled by an oppressive regime because the regime is oppressive. You're just punishing the people who are already oppressed!

There are two positions the PSF can take:

1. Python evangelism is about the tech and is not an endorsement of whoever organize conferences, even if is in nazi Germany.

2. Giving money to a conference IS an endorsement of whoever organize it, so it must comply with the morals of the PSF board and biggest backers.

In hindsight, (1) seems more fair, but because the PSF is about politics and not tech, is not surprising they will always choose (2).

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#308

Post by [deleted] »

_cenw wrote: post #292
kabanda1 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a wrong word to use. But politicians claim to be representing the people's voice in ceating those laws is not entirely correct. In most African countries, people are still uncomfortable with LGBTQ, and the general show of love in public but not hostile to the extent of enacted laws Remember most LGBTQ activism is sponsored by the west, so politicians use that to heat up the population about family, bill gates,…

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#309

Post by diiolk »

Timon3 wrote: post #302
diiolk wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, they are not "without issue". Since the trans discourse has picked up, there have been many cases of these people being targeted and attacked due to "using the wrong bathroom".

Nope, this is a myth perpetuated by activists. Even if there was an isolated case of this, it's not a general rule. There is more chance of being struck by lightning, but that doesn't stop people walking outside.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#310

Post by whoknew1122 »

I'm with most of this. But then we get to:

>In one recent example, voices on the PSF Board were demanding that a condition of funding for a particular PyCon be the formal adoption of a “human rights plan” - a measure that would pose a significant legal and personal risk to its organisers. > >The entitlement and assumption of cultural superiority embodied in these ideas are absurd and offensive.

I can't track down what this 'human rights plan' requires. I also understand that Europeans (and Americans) need to be very careful when projecting cultural norms to other places. I'm not here for cultural colonialism. And there are some countries where supporting LGBTQIA+ rights (and others) is illegal.

The PSF should be careful when it comes to trying to force organizers to take stances that would put organizers in legal jeopardy. But if you find it 'absurd' and 'offensive' to support human rights beliefs that are espoused by a funding body... don't take the damn money.

People can disagree on what human rights exist, and how they should be enforced. I'm well within rights to ensure that funding I'm giving you is contingent on respecting the rights of the people I serve.

Sorry, but there are some hard lines. And support of human rights is culturally superior than non-support of human rights. And if you don't like that, don't take the money.

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