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Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

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Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#51
post #2

Something I've always thought about. Northern Canada we run our wood stoves for ~8 months a year. Temp on the surface of the stove is 200C to 300C. Outside is -20C to -40C. Let's say an average of 200C temp delta across the TEC. Throw a radiator on the outside of the cabin, use coolant with a tiny pump to circulate. How much power am I going to generate with a square foot (or two) of TECs strapped to the wood stove,…

For the PD to deliver work it would have to transport heat outside. Heat you're burning wood to have inside.

Better to store the heat somehow, and have it be slowly released.

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#52
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstood. For comparison, a typical cheap AC has an efficiency (coefficient of performance) of 300%. For every 1W consumed, the AC moves 3W.

That's an AC. This is a heat engine run normally. You're not getting >= 100%.

The "over 100% efficiency" is technically incorrect, but the OP is right.

Carnot limits the efficiency to make work from a thermal process (much less then 100%, in fact).

Carnot does not prohibit you from enjoying the inefficiencies as waste heat.

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#53
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that effectively just suck the heat from your home? I feel like that's not a great use of your stove?

Heating with a wood stove doesn't really have a 'medium' setting. You get 100% while it's roaring away, and that slowly diminishes as the fuel burns down. (Yes you can adjust dampers, and air-flow valves to "slow it down"; but that doesn't really work/happen.) I've lived in a home heated by a wood stove for 10 years. You would build-up the stove so it blasts away, goto bed, and by morning there would be enough coals…

Or you do what slavs did for century and build a massive mud oven to trap the heat in.

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#54

Dupont will see that this never sees the light of day. Just like how we don't use butane/propane/CO2 as refrigerants which are just as safe as most of the flourocarbons but have the downside of being too cheap to make any money off of.

Well they're also inflammable and not as good as CFCs. Kinda how we don't use toxic ammonia as a refrigerant.

For what it's worth, my mini fridge and my chest freezer use some hydrocarbon refrigerant. They're littered with warning signs not to puncture them.

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#55
post #4

I’d pay a premium for a solid state AC or heat pump. It’s absurd how much they cost to install. And I don’t get why replacing one is an all day job for three people. There should be standard connections they just plug into. Like a dishwasher.

>And I don’t get why replacing one is an all day job for three people.

Let's go through the whole process. You need a system changeout for a ducted central HVAC system. Someone comes over and gives a bid. You accept. Your HVAC person needs to go to a supply house and purchase all of the parts and bring them to your residence in a vehicle than can hold everything.

Assuming you have an existing system, the refrigerant has to be recovered with a special recovery pump. You can't just dump refrigerant to the atmosphere. This can take an hour or so.

You've got to find the right breaker(s) and then turn them off. Disconnect the power wiring. Then you've gotta disassemble the old equipment and remove it. Next you move in the new equipment. Rewire the power. Rewire the controls wiring. Assemble the new equipment, assemble plenums, cut holes in plenums, install collars, run duct work from plenums to boxes, attach and seal all ductwork with tape, mastic, etc. You need to strap up the ducts to properly. You still need to solder the line set at this point.

If your new equipment runs on a different type of refrigerant, in all likelihood, you need a new line set (the copper tubes that transport the refrigerant to the evaporator from the condenser and back). Why? Different refrigerants have different working pressures, may require higher flow, etc.

Once you're lineset is soldered back to a condenser AND the evaporator, then you must pull a vacuum on the system to A) remove non condensable gases and B) dehydrate the system so that your refrigerants are clean and the system is efficient. Properly pulling a vacuum is very time consuming. Most guys start by pulling an initial vacuum and then shutting in the system to do a leak test. You may find a leak, this takes more time. You need to repair the leak, then pull another vacuum. Once you past leak test, you pull a final vacuum. You don't want installers skimping on this step as this affects the overall lifespan of the system and system efficiency.

At this point, you can start the system (I've had new units dead from the factory... groan), then you can start charging the system with refrigerant. You need to let the system run for a bit to monitor pressures, monitor return air and supply air temps, etc.

Once the job is done, all of the old equipment and refrigerant has to be taken to specific places for proper disposal.

Everything above is a generally straight forward non-permitted replacement. Other installs may require new circuits run to the equipment, natural gas lines, etc. Some jobs require permits so now the HVAC person has to go to the city, apply for permits, submit plans, have the work inspected, etc.

There's quite a bit of work that has to be done which requires transportation, disposal, specialized knowledge, expensive tools, employees, and most important of all, insurance! Also, keep in mind that a lot of this work is done at temperatures FAR beyond ambient AND in low clearance areas, usually filled with itchy fiberglass. This work is also done with risk of bodily harm (electrocution, poisoning (hello phosgene gas), suffocation (asphyxiation from refrigerants), heat stroke, falls from height, exposure to industrial pollutants like asbestos, burns).

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#56
post #2

Something I've always thought about. Northern Canada we run our wood stoves for ~8 months a year. Temp on the surface of the stove is 200C to 300C. Outside is -20C to -40C. Let's say an average of 200C temp delta across the TEC. Throw a radiator on the outside of the cabin, use coolant with a tiny pump to circulate. How much power am I going to generate with a square foot (or two) of TECs strapped to the wood stove,…

To steelman your proposal, I should mention that Low-Tech Magazine thinks you're on to something, although they suggest putting the panels on the stove inside the cabin: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/05/thermoelectric-sto... I disagree with that article for the simple reason that I do not consider burning wood to be sustainable, or healthy for anything with lungs. Wood should be used for long-lasting constru…

> I disagree with that article for the simple reason that I do not consider burning wood to be sustainable, or healthy for anything with lungs. Wood should be used for long-lasting construction or left alone / carefully nurtured to aid our forests in rebuilding biodiversity.

In Northern Canada there is almost no other way. Once you are ~10minutes out of town there is no natural gas. Also note wood stoves now are double (or triple) burning with catalytic combustors that extract waaaay more heat from the wood and emit waaaay less particles in the air (because they burn it)

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why all electric heating should be devices that do work or compute. Do not waste the Gibbs free energy of the universe.

I want a cottage industry of aluminum smelters in cold climates. Pick up a pile of aluminum oxide from a depot, electrolyze it into aluminum at home, and drop off the finished aluminum at the depot for a cheque that covers your electricity. "The theoretical minimum energy requirement for this process is 6.23 kWh/(kg of Al), but the process commonly requires 15.37 kWh." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall%E2%80%93H%C3%…

Neat idea. Aluminum smelting isn’t really hands off enough to make this viable at home.

It might make sense at industrial scale while pumping waste heat to nearby office buildings or something. But even slightly higher electricity costs would be a huge issue.

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#58
post #2

Something I've always thought about. Northern Canada we run our wood stoves for ~8 months a year. Temp on the surface of the stove is 200C to 300C. Outside is -20C to -40C. Let's say an average of 200C temp delta across the TEC. Throw a radiator on the outside of the cabin, use coolant with a tiny pump to circulate. How much power am I going to generate with a square foot (or two) of TECs strapped to the wood stove,…

Yes there is a massive potential for power generation. Stirling engine would give you the maximum efficiency but maybe not the max power output. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge3cerSVEI0

When it's -40 often, and you live off grid, no moving parts trumps complexity every time

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#59
post #51
post #2

Something I've always thought about. Northern Canada we run our wood stoves for ~8 months a year. Temp on the surface of the stove is 200C to 300C. Outside is -20C to -40C. Let's say an average of 200C temp delta across the TEC. Throw a radiator on the outside of the cabin, use coolant with a tiny pump to circulate. How much power am I going to generate with a square foot (or two) of TECs strapped to the wood stove,…

For the PD to deliver work it would have to transport heat outside. Heat you're burning wood to have inside. Better to store the heat somehow, and have it be slowly released.

Heat we have a massive, massive, massive excess of.

It's electricity I want, in the winter, when the sun is only on the solar panels for ~3 hours a day.

Re: Thermoelectric heating stands at the brink of commercialization

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most burned wood is wood unsuitable for construction. No one goes into the woods and cuts down a 200-year oak to burn in their stove. Short lengths, widths, knots, imperfections, wood waste pressed into pellets, etc. Although you do have a point about it being bad for air quality. Especially old stove installations.

In my vacation house, I’ve got a Hearthstone Heritage wood stove, neither old nor new, and I believe it has been refurbished a bit. When I ran it over Thanksgiving I put an air purifier next to it and ran it on auto. I’d been concerned about air quality with the wood stove. Pleasingly it ran on low and barely blipped when I’d open the door to add logs. Weirdly, it -would- climb up to medium if I opened the door to th…

It's not the wood stove owner that is exposed to the wood smoke, it's his neighbors.
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