This is a political problem, not a technological one. The USSR (alongside Germany and others) managed effective at scale spying with primitive technology: paperwork for everything and every movement, informants, audio surveillance, and so on. The reason such things did not come to places like the US in the same way is not because we were incapable of such, but because there was no political interest in it. And when o…
Sure, everything is ultimately a political problem, but this one is completely driven by technological change. In the USSR (and GDR), it took them a staff of hundreds of thousands of people to write up their reports. Now it would take a single skilled person the better part of an afternoon to, for example, download a HN dump, and have an LLM create reports on the users. You could put in things like political affiliat…
AI and Mass Spying
211–220 of 349 posts
Re: AI and Mass Spying
#212Then people will start using AI to generate random traffic noise to fool AI watching them.
This is the same fallacious trope as "click on irrelevant ads to confuse marketers". People are not good at deceiving algorithms at scale.
Re: AI and Mass Spying
#213What can AI/ML do __today__?
We have lots of ways to track people around a building or city. The challenge is to do these tasks through multi-camera systems. This includes things like people tracking (person with random ID but consistent across cameras), face identification (more specific representation that is independent of clothing, which usually identifies the former), gait tracking (how one walks), device tracking (based on bluetooth, wifi, and cellular). There is a lot of mixed success with these tools but I'll let you know some part that should concern you: right now these are mostly ResNet50 models, datasets are small, and they are not using advanced training techniques. That is changing. There are legal issues and datasets are becoming proprietary but the size and frequency of gathering data is growing.
I'm not going to talk about social media because the metadata problem is an already well discussed one and you all have already made your decisions and we've witnessed the results of those decisions. I'm also not going to talk about China, the most surveilled country in the world, the UK, or any of that for similar reasons. We'll keep talking in general, that is invariant to country.
What I will talk about is that modern ML has greatly accelerated the data gathering sector. Your threat models have changed from governments rushing to gather all the data that they can, to big companies joining the game, to now small mom and pop shops doing so. I __really__ implore you all to look at what's in that dataset[0]. There's 5B items, this tool helps retrieve based on CLIP embeddings. You might think "oh yes, Google can already do this" but the difference is that you can't download Google. Google does not give you 16.5TB of clip filtered image,text, & metadata. Or look into the RedPajama dataset[1] which has >30T tokens and 5TB of storage. With 32k tokens being about 50 pages, that's about 47 billion pages. That is, a stack of paper 5000km tall, reaching 5x the height of the ISS and is bigger than the diameter of the moon. I know we all understand that there's big data collection, but do you honestly understand how big these numbers are? I wouldn't even claim to because I cannot accurately conceptualize the size of the moon nor the distance to the ISS. They just roll into the "big" bin in my brain.
Today, these systems can track you with decent accuracy even if you use basic obscurification techniques like glasses, hats, or even a surgical mask. Today we can track you not just by image, but how you walk, and can with moderate success do this through walls (meaning no camera to see if you want to know you're being tracked). Today, these systems can de-anonymize you through unique text patterns that you use (see Enron dataset, but scale). Today, these machines can uncanny valley replicas of your speech and text. Today we can make images of people that are convincingly real. Today, these tools aren't exclusive to governments or trillion dollar corporations, but available to any person that is willing to spend a few thousand dollars on compute.
I don't want to paint this as a picture of doom and gloom. These tools are amazing and have the potential to do extraordinary good, at levels that would be unimaginable only a few decades ago. Even many of these tools that can invade your privacy are benefits in some ways, but just need to consider context. You cannot build a post scarce society when you require humans to monitor all stores.
But like Uncle Ben says, with great power comes great responsibility. A technology that has the capacity to do tremendous good also has the power to do tremendous horrors.
The choice is ours and the latter prevails when we are not open. We must ever push for these tools to be used for good, because with them we can truly do amazing things. We do not need AGI to create a post scarce world and I have no doubt that were this to become our primary goal, we could easily reach it within our lifetime without becoming a Sci-Fi dystopia and while tackling existential issues such as climate. To poke the bear a little, I'd argue that if your country wants to show dominance and superiority on the global stage, it is not done so through military power but technology. You will win the culture wars of all culture wars and whoever creates the post scarce world will be a country that will never be forgotten by time. Lift a billion people out of poverty? Try lifting 8 billion not just out of poverty, but into the lower middle class, where no child dreams of being hungry. That is something humans will never forget. So maybe this should be our cold war, not the one in the Pacific. If you're so great, truly, truly show me how superior your country/technology/people are. This is a battle that can be won by anyone at this point, not just China vs the US, but even any European power has the chance to win.
Re: AI and Mass Spying
#214The new Google, Meta, Microsoft, etc. bots won't just crawl the web or social networks--they will crawl specific topics and people. Lots of cultures have the concept of a "guardian angel" or "ancestral spirits" that watch over the lives of their descendants. In the not-so-distant technofedualist future you'll have a "personal assistant bot" provided by a large corporation that will "help" you by answering questions,…
> In the not-so-distant technofedualist future you'll have [...] I guarantee that I won't. That, at least, is a nightmare that I can choose to avoid. I don't think I can avoid the other dystopian things AI is promising to bring, but I can at least avoid that one.
Remember how raising awareness about smartphones, always on microphones, closed source communication services/apps worked? I do not.
I run an Android (Google free) smartphone with a custom ROM, only use free software apps on it.
How does it help when I am surrounded by people using these kind of technologies (privacy violating ones)? I does not. How will it help when everyone will have his/her personal assistant (robot, drone, smart wearable, smart-thing, whatever) and you (and I) won't? It will not.
None of my friends, family, colleagues (even the security/privacy aware engineers) bother. Some of them because they do not have the technical knowledge to do so, most of them because they do not want to sacrifice any bit of convenience/comfort (and maybe rightfully so, I am not judging them - life is short, I do get that people do not want to waste precious time maintaining arcane infra, devices, config,... themselves).
I am a privacy and free software advocate and an engineer; whenever I can (and when there is a tiny bit of will on their side or when I have lever), I try to get people off surveillance/ad-backed companies services.
It rarely works or lasts. Sometimes it does though so it is worth (to me) keep on trying.
It generally works or lasts when I have lever: I manage various sports team, only share schedules etc via Signal ; family wants to get pictures from me, I will only share the link (to my Nextcloud instance) or photos themselves via Signal, etc.
Sometimes it sticks with people because it's close enough to whatsapp/messenger/whatever if most (all) of their contacts are their. But as soon as you have that one person that will not or can not install Signal, alternatives groups get created on whatsapp/messenger/whatever.
Overcoming the network effect is tremendously hard to borderline impossible.
Believing that you can escape it is a fallacy. It does not mean that is not worth fight for our rights, but believing that you can escape it altogether (without becoming and hermit) would be setting, I believe, an unachievable goal (with all the psychological impact that it can/will have).
Edit: fixed typos
Re: AI and Mass Spying
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is mass surveillance. It's just not being looked at by anyone until you are targeted by the government. If you are targeted, your entire life is within keystrokes of the authorities. This is the same thing the article is saying. The article is making the point that it's not feasible to spy on every person to monitor them for wrongdoing currently. It doesn't scale and it's not cost effective. With AI that will chan…
> it's not feasible to spy on every person to monitor them for wrongdoing currently Sure it is! That's the whole point of search being the previous big technical hurdle. YouTube monitors every single video posted in real time for copyright infringement. We've had the capability to do this kind of monitoring for huge swaths of crimes for a decade and it hasn't turned into anything. We could for example catch every dri…
Your two examples are flawed and don't address what the article is saying. The algorithm to check for copyright violations is relatively simple and dumb. Speed cameras: many countries do use speed cameras (i.e. Australia, UK). The problem with speed cameras is that once you know where they are, you simply slow down when approaching.
Again, mass vs. targeted surveillance is irrelevant now. You've already been surveilled. It's just a matter of getting access to the information.
Re: AI and Mass Spying
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that if AI enables mass spying, then the costs will no longer be prohibitive to target an individual because the infrastructure could be built out once and then reused to target individuals at scale with AI doing all of the correlation behind the scenes.
That would resolve the spying cost, but not the punishment cost. My go-to example here is heroin: class A drug in the UK, 7 years for possession and life for supply, so far as I can see nobody has anything good to say about it, and it has around three times as many users in the UK as the entire UK prison population. Could implement punishment for that specific crime, at huge cost, but you can't expand that to all cri…
We are already in the jail.
Re: AI and Mass Spying
#217Re: AI and Mass Spying
#218I don't know why this isn't being discussed more. The reality of the surveillance state is that the sheer amount of data couldn't realistically be monitored - AI very directly solves this problem by summarizing complex data. This, IMO, is the real danger of AI, at least in the short term - not a planet of paperclips, not a moral misalignment, not a media landscape bereft of creativity - but rather a tool for targetin…
AI didn't solve the problem of summarizing complex large datasets. For example a common way to deal with such datasets is to use a random subset of this dataset. This represents a single line of code potentially to perform this operation.
I will say that at least gpt4 and gpt3, after many rounds of summaries, tends to flatten everything out into useless "blah". I tried this with summarizing school board meetings and it's just really bad at picking out important information -- it just lacks the specific context required to make summaries useful.
A seemingly bland conversation about meeting your friend Molly could mean something very different in certain contexts, and I'm just trying to imagine the prompt engineering and fine tuning required to get it to know about every possible context a conversation could be happening in that alters the meaning of the conversation.
Re: AI and Mass Spying
#219The flip side to this is the government had power because these activities required enormous resources. Perhaps it will go the other direction, if there is less of a moat other players can enter. Eg all it takes to make a state is a bunch of cheap drones and the latest government bot according to your philosophy.
Maybe it means government will massively shrink in personelle? Maybe we can have a completely open source ai government/legal system. Lawyers kind of suck ethically anyway, so maybe it would be better? With low barrier to entry, we can rapidly prototype such governments and trial them on smaller populations like iceland. Such utopias will be so good everyone will move there.
They still have to have physical prisons, if everyone is in prison this will be silly, but I suppose they can fine everyone, not so different from lowering wages which they already do.
Re: AI and Mass Spying
#220This is a political problem, not a technological one. The USSR (alongside Germany and others) managed effective at scale spying with primitive technology: paperwork for everything and every movement, informants, audio surveillance, and so on. The reason such things did not come to places like the US in the same way is not because we were incapable of such, but because there was no political interest in it. And when o…
It is not as simple as being a political problem. Many of the policy decisions we think of as being political were actually motivated by the cost/availability of technology. As this cost goes down, new options become practical. We think of the Stasi's capabilities as being remarkable: but in fact, they would probably have been thrilled to trade most of their manual spying tools for something as powerful as a modern g…