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Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

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Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#111
post #7

If you do enough measurements on that new prompt then I don't see why this shouldn't be a paper. People overestimate the value of "grand developments", and underestimate the value of actually knowing - in this case actually knowing how well something works, even if it is as simple as a prompt. Compare with drug trials: Adderall only differs from regular amphetamine in the relative concentration of enantiomers, and th…

> and the entire value of the drug is in the measurements.

I'm not sure this is true.

While modern Adderall has a closely controlled mixture of multiple enantiomers, it hasn't always been this way.

Medicine historically didn't care nearly as much about racemic mixtures, and the possibility of stereo toxicity (eg Thalidomide).

Many drugs in modern human history, including mixed amphetamine salts, have been marketed with very little concern for racemic purity.

Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#113
What's the difference between a paper on a new prompt and a paper discussing a new domain-specific model, e.g. heart failure risk? If they analyze the problem and solution equally, they both seem useful. It's not like most other ML papers share their weights or datasets.

Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#114
post #108

Excuse me? Step by step wasn't paper-worthy? Hard disagree. LLM research is currently in its infancy, because they are no older than a few years old. And a research field in its infancy is bound to have a few noteworthy "no sh*t, Sherlock" papers that would be obvious from hindsight. The fact is, LLMs are a higher-order construct in machine learning, much like a fish is higher-order than a simple cellular colony. Low…

I'm not surprised at the defence of "prompt engineering" here. It's something easy to do with no real knowledge, and I'm sure having it dismissed hurts some people. But I 100% agree with the author, "prompt engineering" is not science, and I'd say it's not engineering either. All you're doing is exploring the parameter space of particular model in a very crude way. There is no "engineering" going on in this process,…

> But I 100% agree with the author, "prompt engineering" is not science, and I'd say it's not engineering either. All you're doing is exploring the parameter space of particular model in a very crude way. There is no "engineering" going on in this process, just a bunch of trial and error.

I wonder what your definition of “science” or “engineering” is…

Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#115
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This paints a rosy picture of human-generated data now. It's not as if most human data is reliable. Even among peer reviewed scientific literature, most of it is crap and it takes effort to find the good stuff. Also, your analogy kind of misses the point of the Fallout games. The pre-war world was awful, filled with evil corporations like Vault-tech and Nuka Cola that murdered and poisoned their customers, and the po…

There is a reason I didn't draw a hard parallel. I use AI day to day. I see what it can do and can't. But when you see pages, and pages, and pages of GPT spam all over the place. Finding the nuggets of wisdom will be much harder than before, the "bomb" was dropped. Thus actually leading to the whole FO4 main plot. Yes, life will always find a way. And yes humanity can not put the genie in a bottle, we are much more l…

> "I remember reading older math texts (way pre-computer works in things like diffeq and PDE) and often thinking the explanations were clearer."

This is 100% the case in chess as well. The books before and after the computer era are orders of magnitude different in terms of readability. I think a major shift in society has been in motivation. In the past if you were studying advanced mathematics, let alone writing about it, it was solely and exclusively because you absolutely loved the field. And you were also probably several sigmas outside the mean intellectually. Now? It's most often because of some vague direction such as wanting a decent paying job, which may through the twists and turns of fate eventually see you writing books in a subject you don't particularly have much enthusiasm for.

And the much more crowded 'intellectual market', alongside various image crafting or signaling motivations, also creates a really perverse incentive. Exceptional competence and understanding within a subject makes it easy to explain things, even the esoteric and fabulously complex. See: Richard Feynman. But in modern times there often seems to be a desire to go the other direction - and make things sound utterly complex, even when they aren't. I think Einstein's paper on special relativity vs many (most?) modern papers is a good example. Einstein's writing was such that anybody with a basic education could clearly understand the paper, even if they might not fully follow the math. By contrast, so many modern papers seem to be written as if the author had a well worn copy of the Thesaurus of Incomprehensibility at his bedside table.

Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#116
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That lying about your symptoms to doctors leads to incorrect diagnoses?

They are _not_ doctors in terms of evidence-based medicine, just policemen without a token. The problem is obviously not about incorrect diagnosis, I can lie to any doctor about any symptoms and just go home with zero obstructions from feds.

As someone who was formerly in a mental ward for acute crisis, I would say that at least the 72 hour hold was an essential and necessary part of my treatment. I don't think that staying at home with unprepared family members for the acute period would have worked out, and I don't even have a problematic home environment!

The flip side of the coin is that I was in a really high quality hospital, I'm sure there are hospitals or facilities that can be more harmful rather than helpful.

I also have a problem with the way that they treat mental health like cancer, that once you have a diagnosis you will always have it. There are zero diagnostic criteria for "fully recovered" or removing dependence on medication, even after 5 or 10 years. It's also treated like a scarlet letter for insurance and unrelated things like TSA pre check - no matter how well you are doing you are still some level of risk to yourself and society. Though I could be wrong... the reoccurrence chart over time for my specific acute mania (with no depressive episodes) does look a lot like cancer remission charts with asymptotic approach to 80%+ reoccurrence after 2-4 years.

Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> LLM research is currently in its infancy Everything that went in to creating GPT4 is AI/science or whatever. Probing GPT4 and trying to understand and characterize it is also a very worthy thing to do - else how can it be improved upon? But if making GPT is science, I'd say this stuff is more akin to psychology ;-)

you realize nobody understands WHY or HOW these models work under the hood right? it's akin to evolution - we understand the process - that part is simple. But the output/organisms we have to investigate how they work.

> you realize nobody understands WHY or HOW these models work under the hood right?

Of course we understand how they work, we built them! There is no mystery in their mechanisms, we know the number of neurons, their connectivity, everything from the weights to the activation functions. This is not a mystery, this is several decades of technical developments.

> it's akin to evolution - we understand the process - that part is simple.

There is nothing simple about evolution. Things like horizontal gene transfer is very much not obvious, and the effect of things like environment is a field of active research.

> But the output/organisms we have to investigate how they work.

There is a fundamental difference with neural networks here: there are a lot of molecules in an animal’s body about which we have no clue. Similarly, we don’t know what a lot of almost any animal’s DNA encodes. Model species that are entirely mapped are few and far between. An artificial neural network is built from simple bricks that interact in well defined ways. We really cannot say the same thing about chemistry in general, much less bio chemistry.

Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#118
post #68

It is a _paper_, but it's not science, since GTP-4 is closed source and thus not reproducible in a lab. If OpenAI disappears tomorrow, papers are GTP-4 will likely be of little to no value, which is another tell of a non-scientific exploration. (note: not all explorations are scientific, and that is great! Science is just one of many tools for exploring lived reality.)

That’s like saying a biologist studying an endangered species isn’t doing science because the animal could disappear tomorrow. The permanence of a subject has no bearing on whether it is science or not. The idea that science has to happen in a lab is of course absurd as well.

> That’s like saying a biologist studying an endangered species isn’t doing science because the animal could disappear tomorrow. The permanence of a subject has no bearing on whether it is science or not. The idea that science has to happen in a lab is of course absurd as well.

The main point here is that anyone can likely start studing those endangered species and try to reproduce the results while in GPT4 it is not possible at all. The lab point is related to fact that we are talking about the software here.

Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#119
post #54
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is psychology, but applied biology? https://xkcd.com/435/

Psychology is a religious-like pseudoscience, they can not even define what "psy" is without using some conceptions from religions such as a soul. upd these statements from me are so controversial, the number of "points" just dances lambada. The psy* areas are clearly polarized: some guys upvote all my messages in this topic and some other ones downvote all my messages in this topic. This is a sign of something inter…

>> This is a sign of something interesting

Yeah, you might understand it if you study psychology or perhaps sociology.

Re: Sorry, but a new prompt for GPT-4 is not a paper

#120
Developing prompts for these models isn't a science yet. It does seem to meet most of the criteria for an art though.

We recognize some outputs as high quality, and others as low quality, but often can't articulate the exact reason why. It seems that some people are able to reliably produce high quality results, indicating there is some kind of skill involved. More precisely, the quality of an individual artist's last output is positively correlated with the quality of their next output. A kind of imprecise "shop talk" has emerged, self describing as "prompt engineering", which resembles the conversations artists in other mediums have.

For people in tech this will seem most similar to graphic designers. They produce much nicer looking interfaces than lay people can. We often can't explain why, but recognize it to be the case. And graphic designers have their own set of jargon, which is useful to them, but is not scientific.

"Prompt artist" is a better term than "prompt engineer".

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