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Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

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Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#31

Post by defrost »

qwytw wrote: post #23
defrost wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both. The bulk of modern Europe was covered in thick glacial ice, when it receded the "first Europeans" walked in from the south. A number got a lot paler after many generations in the more northern parts, others less pale, and those near the Mediterranean were neither ghost white nor midnight black. Now throw in a steady low rate of long distance trade - traders travelled, as did those enslaved and traded. The Roman…

> A number got a lot paler after many generations in the more northern parts, others less pale, and those near the Mediterranean were neither ghost white nor midnight black. IIRC the current theory is that genes responsible for white skin in Europe were initially introduced by farmers migrating from Anatolia and the middle east (white skin appearings somewhere there or closer to the Caucasus). They almost entirely re…

> North Africans. Who were most likely more "white" back then than now

So .. easily confused with Swedes then?

Or as dark if not darker than (say) Greeks and therefore People Of Some Colour?

How rich was the Kingdom of Aksum and how much trade did they do with India and the Roman Empire, did they travel afar from their own land?

What of their successors, the Abyssinians, did they not once have "all the gold"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleb_of_Axum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_to_Abyssinia#/media/...

As I stated, travelling throughout Europe, through the territories of the Roman Empire, all manner of complexions could be seen, some less frequently than others - but there were certainly rich, powerful, and very dark traders from abroad along with no shortage of Mediterrian complexions.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#33

Post by eigenket »

leoedin wrote: post #7
basisword wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you’re entitled to dig up peoples bodies and conduct research on indigenous people? That kind of entitlement is the cause of everything bad in the tech industry.

You completely missed my point. How can anyone possibly ask the descendants of 500+ year old plague victims whether they consent to research on their teeth. Do you just go round knocking on every door in a 10 mile radius? I'm British, and so might be descended from the bodies they did research on. They didn't ask me - and they shouldn't have to. Fine, clear it with an ethics committee, be open about what you're doing…

> How can anyone possibly ask the descendants of 500+ year old plague victims whether they consent to research on their teeth. Do you just go round knocking on every door in a 10 mile radius?

You ask the government.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#34

Post by samus »

sokoloff wrote: post #30
happymellon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You appear to be missing the part where these are not British scientists researching British remains in Britain. Yes, the Americans and Australians should ask before taking British remains from Britain away for research in their labs. I don't see where the research is conducted but there isn't any mention of collaboration with the UK so this would involve exporting the remains.

Consistent with the precedent the British established with all of those Egyptian mummies? I mean, I agree they need permission, but it’s at least a little ironic…

Good example for why such rules were introduced. Although not perfectly applicable since there is no hope to locate an Egyptian mummy's heirs nowadays. Although we are quite sure that they would have disapproved.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#35

Post by stareatgoats »

eigenket wrote: post #25
leoedin wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That part jumped out at me. Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? And how on earth are they even going to get it? Surely even if one guy says it's ok (and you can prove he's descended from a body you found), what happens if another person says no? It's obviously nonsense - so why claim it? The part about indiginous research is kind of mad as well - "This rese…

This research is being done by US and Australian universities on remains from the UK. If you turn up in the UK and try to dig up random skeletons and send them to the US or Australia without the correct permissions, you're gonna get arrested. Probably very quickly, probably at the first grave yard you visit. You get the permission from whoever owns the land the graves are in, as well as the UK government.

If I get your drift, you mean that research papers should henceforth have disclaimer, saying that "no law was broken during our research"? Fair enough, but I don't think that's what they were signaling by the quote in question somehow.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#36

Post by qwytw »

defrost wrote: post #31
qwytw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A number got a lot paler after many generations in the more northern parts, others less pale, and those near the Mediterranean were neither ghost white nor midnight black. IIRC the current theory is that genes responsible for white skin in Europe were initially introduced by farmers migrating from Anatolia and the middle east (white skin appearings somewhere there or closer to the Caucasus). They almost entirely re…

> North Africans. Who were most likely more "white" back then than now So .. easily confused with Swedes then? Or as dark if not darker than (say) Greeks and therefore People Of Some Colour? How rich was the Kingdom of Aksum and how much trade did they do with India and the Roman Empire, did they travel afar from their own land? What of their successors, the Abyssinians, did they not once have "all the gold"? https:/…

> So .. easily confused with Swedes then?

Maybe not Swedes (who weren't exactly typical Romans) but with someone from Iberia, Italy, Sicily or Greece? Sure.

Northern Africa wasn't exactly an ethnically homogenous region either. Phoenicians were establishing colonies there for hundreds of years, there was significant contact with the Greeks and other areas in the Mediterranean (including extensive slave trade). By the time the Romans had conquered Britain many Italians had also settled there (and their descendants were likely significantly overrepresented in the legions recruited there, you had to be a citizen to join after all).

> did they travel afar from their own land

I'm not sure we have any evidence of that? But sure it's not impossible that a statistically insignificant number of people from there might have somehow ended up in Roman Britain (and considering how lucrative the Indian Ocean trade what incentives would they have had to travel to other side of the world?)

> the Abyssinians, did they not once have "all the gold"?

Maybe? Not sure how is that related?

> there were certainly rich, powerful, and very dark traders from abroad along with no shortage of Mediterrian complexions.

How is that certain? I agree about the Mediterranean, Northern Europe and the parts of the Middle East who were in close contact with the Romans with numbers of people from those areas exponentially decreasing with distance. Merchants/people from anywhere else? Extremely unlikely to end up in a distant backwater like Britain (unlike in Rome itself for instance).

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#38

Post by samus »

informatimago wrote: post #16
leoedin wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That part jumped out at me. Why on earth do they need the permission of the descendents of someone who lived 500+ years ago? And how on earth are they even going to get it? Surely even if one guy says it's ok (and you can prove he's descended from a body you found), what happens if another person says no? It's obviously nonsense - so why claim it? The part about indiginous research is kind of mad as well - "This rese…

Indeed. 500 years is about 16 generations, so any ancestor of that age may have 65536 or even more descendents. You'd need to locate them and ask them all permission. How does it work, is it majority vote? Unanimous vote? All European people have a unique male ancestor 300 generations away. If you locate remains of that age, do you have to ask nobody or everybody? (Depending on whether it's the male ancestor of all o…

Human societies have elaborate processes to solve this issue: inheritance laws. In case no heirs can be located anymore (body can't be identified, records are missing, the line has died out, etc.) the state is the heir by default and makes the rules.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#39

Post by b800h »

dijit wrote: post #22
basisword wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you’re entitled to dig up peoples bodies and conduct research on indigenous people? That kind of entitlement is the cause of everything bad in the tech industry.

There's a limit, surely. After 3 generations of nobody having known you living: surely your body must have reverted to general property. I don't want to start a holy war, I understand sentimentality. But if you dug up my great grandfathers great grandfather then honestly I have absolutely no connection to the man and his body could be anywhere on earth. It's not my property and despite sharing some of my genes it's p…

That would be massively influenced by culture. An atheist materialist from the West is going to have a totally different view to someone from a culture where burial has all sorts of codified behaviours and beliefs associated with it.

Re: Study of ancient British oral microbiomes reveals shift following Black Death

#40

Post by thenerdhead »

yosito wrote: post #32

With the number of anecdotal reports I've heard of people having gut problems post-Covid, I wonder if this will also be true in our times.

There are a number of gut microbiome testing companies sponsoring studies on this and university labs who have found some promising candidate probiotics being clinically trialed to restore gut microbiome. We may be able to fix ours.
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