Live data from Hacker News

Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

washingtonpost.com

481–490 of 551 posts

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't "Foundation" a word that is usually for non-profits? I understood the different between "Charity" and "Foundation" just to be about "Public" vs "Private" organization, but both of them being non-profits. Am I misunderstanding what "Foundation" means here?

I think I could start the Evil Foundation and as long as I don't file for 501(c)(3) status, I'm still for-profit.

The foundation here is a 501(c)(3) non profit. However it is not a public charity, which is a sub classification that comes with stricter rules and higher donation tax write-off limits.

People tend to assume all 501(c)(3)/nonproft and "public charity" are synonymous, but they aren't and that can make discussions like this confusing.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#482
post #378

Honestly, not sure on which side I am. Facebook being a criminal organization is nothing new. Harvard (and pretty much any other university) being a criminal organization is nothing new as well. But, man, "propaganda scholar"…

I had the same thought. There's no good side. Just the corrupt going against the corrupt and seeing who can spin the most elaborate tangled web of lies to 'prove' their point.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#483

I'm hesitant to share this because it's completely unverifiable in any way I'd be comfortable documenting. Not my life, not my secrets to tell. I had a close friend who did undergraduate research in a fisheries department. They had been researching plant selection for aquaponics to increase the yield of tilapia. They had a filtration system that pushed tank water through a bed of plant roots. The plants would be harv…

Well isn't that a similar story behind OpenAI drama? Big money suppressing innovation.

Not even closely related. One is big money corrupting academia, another is startup drama.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well isn't that a similar story behind OpenAI drama? Big money suppressing innovation.

Not even closely related. One is big money corrupting academia, another is startup drama.

This is incorrectly assuming that all innovation happens in academia.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#486
post #243

Setting aside the institutional failures within Harvard, shouldn't this also pose legal problems for the Chan Zuckerberg Foundation? I am certainly not a lawyer, but I thought the tax-benefits of a non-profit were supposed to be tied to some governance requirements and operating in pursuit of some mission other than profit. If when the Chan Zuckerberg foundation gives a donation to a school, an exec from Meta is then…

It's deeply dirty, in a sort of teflon get-away-with-anything way. Of course Harvard needs money to run, and has in the past accepted all manner of dubious donors, but implicitly receiving a payment quid pro quo to kill research is pretty low.

What's actually dirty? Silicon Valley Community Foundation (SVCF): a tax breaks now, pay-give later DAF. It ostensibly does some community projects that are token billionaire pet projects, but it exists first and primarily to reduce taxes of the gigarich.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#487
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite what I imagine when I hear the term "gutting a team." Gutting a team is when then very significantly reduce its size and priority. Simply switching leadership of a project isn't gutting a team, it's normal university politics and infighting. If they are forcing funding by Facebook/Meta, then that does seem like a conflict of interest, but is a quite a different headline.

From what I gathered, they didn't simply switch leadership, they removed it entirely, along with the person doing the most work, replacing them with nothing, which effectively shut down the project. Is there someone continuing it that I missed?

According to the complaint, "the project" was FB Archive, which Dr. Donovan came up with the idea for and was the only person in the room with the actual source material. The Public Interest Tech Lab was the organization actually tasked with building out FB Archive, which they did, and it shipped: https://fbarchive.org

I think Dr. Donovan's complaint is not that it didn't happen, so much as she was not allowed to play a larger role in it despite having the desire, the people, the funding, and the right--as the person who came up with the idea and the person who provided the material, without which there would be no project. (And then worse, history rewritten to exclude her contributions)

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no such thing as a "well functioning free market". It's an utopia. It's relative. You seem to be confusing "well" with "perfect". Depending on your point of view, no economic system is well functioning, because there will always be ebbs and flows where people clash with the system and it works better or worse at time. I'm not sure if our version of a free market in the U.S. is closer to well functioning or…

> respond with something I interpret as "don't bother, it can't be perfect" That was not my intention. I simply had to point this out because your comment implied that a well functioning free market could somehow solve the issue. My take is that it can't, because there's no such thing. Whether or not we should bother with improving it, is a matter for another debate. My take is that we've tried it for long enough, an…

> Whether or not we should bother with improving it, is a matter for another debate. My take is that we've tried it for long enough, and small improvements simply don't work anymore. Millions of people need/want something and a small handful of powerful rich folks can deny that with no real recourse.

I'm not sure that's true, or if that's just a prevailing emotion. Being true and feeling that way aren't the same thing. Presumably, if it's true, we can point towards examples of it, and try to quantify it.

If the answer is "no, we can't quantify it because the same people that cause it prevent us from knowing about it", well, that's an untestable assertion and very close to conspiracy theory territory, so I would push back on that, as I think anyone should. So hopefully there are some examples we can discuss.

> I mostly agree! But that's, once again, an utopia. Key information is still kept from the public eyes and the trend is to get more restricted to the rich and powerful as time goes on.

Except we're seeing the counter case right here, right now? Here we have what appears to be a case of Meta with their thumb on the scale, and then with their thumb on the scale again when they're investigated. Either soemthing comes about from this, or from similar stuff later on, or I'd be tempted to say most people just don't care.

To be clear, just because you and I care doesn't mean the average person does, and if the average person doesn't and that means nothing happens, that's not a failure of the system, that's it working as expected, as our minority opinion shouldn't necessarily override theirs, no matter how much we think we're right.

> As an example, a few key players like Google and Meta have information on virtually every single citizen in the world, while the public has absolutely no control over it or oversight on how that's used.

No, the public has absolute control, through petitioning for legislature and holding their representatives to account for acting, or not. Failure to exercise power is not the same as lack of power, even if it appears the same.

> even with information, the system is unable to make any meaningful change.

There are many changes that happen all the time, but the system is also slow, which in some ways is a feature and some ways a problem. Being slow to change means that rapidly changing events can take a while to be dealt with, but it also means that usually there's limited damage that a change in a detrimental direction can do before it's recognized and dealt with, because the changes often come in small steps.

> At best we get a few scapegoats or slaps on the wrist. Information alone is useless if you either have nobody that can act on it (think unregulated markets, industries, etc), or the ones that are able to, can't or won't because of the existing power structures, like the example in the article.

This article is the response to this problem. Harvard is ultimately responsible to the students that want to go there, the donors that donate, and the state and federal governments in which it resides and operates. Whether this results in a small loss in confidence in Harvard being able to carry out research objectively by those that pay attention, a large loss in confidence for the general public the public that Harvard can carry out research objectively and that affecting other research they do, or the federal government calling people in to investigate, we'll have to see. The latter seems unlikely, but I'm looking forward to there maybe being some increased scrutiny and coverage. It seems it's being covered by major outlets now, so congress getting interested isn't out of the question, given they've been fairly interested in this fairly recently.

> I was obviously alluding to the ever-present "communism/socialism is an utopia" argument.

I wouldn't claim a free market to be a utopia, and I wouldn't think someone espousing communism or socialism would in a discussion where they are expected to support their assertions, so I don't think it's particularly useful to introduce it to the conversation here. Without someone actually calling for it, it's just a straw man argument, whether against a person or a position, and whether against me or against the traditional counter to what I presented, I don't think it serves a useful purpose. I was confused enough by it's introduction that I honestly wasn't sure what the point was.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really really naive.

I do love it when people say "I am not familiar with this situation at all but" and then proceed to speculate about it having made clear they have no basis for their speculation.

> they have no basis for their speculation

> based on my knowledge of other industries

:)

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#490

Is this a surprise? All of these universities are known to bow down to the biggest wallets, so why on earth would anyone expect that they wouldn't can any investigations to someone who donated $500 million? I'm shocked that anyone else is shocked.

Whether you are surprised or not is barely relevant. It is newsworthy and worth discussing particularly when there is concrete evidence on which to make or fail to make a case.

"This surprises you?!" Is a statement that contributes nothing. The occurrence of people doing wrong is not surprising, it is frequently shocking. The fallout when such people are caught out is worth noting.

Post reply on HN