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Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

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Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#361

Post by Draiken »

kbenson wrote: post #264
scj wrote: post #131

What I'm hearing is that universities coast-to-coast should start "researching" Facebook.

You jest, but that is how a well functioning free market would handle this problem, I think. As long as the information about the payments is public (and information being available is an integral part of any free market, which some people seem to miss), then paying would be a losing proposition for Facebook in the long run since there's always another person ready to step and and start looking you'd need to pay off.…

There's no such thing as a "well functioning free market". It's an utopia.

What we have today is how a free market works. The invisible hand always tipping the scales. They would simply find a better way to get the outcome they want, avoiding the issue altogether (something at the federal level, make an example out of a researcher or institution, etc).

The word utopia is used a lot when anything other than capitalism is being talked about, but the free market, which is an integral part of it, definitely takes the win. We have so many "free economies" around demonstrating how much of an utopia this concept is.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#362

Post by [deleted] »

cbsmith wrote: post #340
macksd wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think sidelining the lead researcher and giving the project to another group is accurately described at "gutting a team". No, they didn't end the project, but the series of events described seems to be insinuating that she could have led the project if she was willing to have her work funded by Facebook, listen to one of their former people, etc. So if that was their goal, and they just got someone else to do the w…

Fair, but it raises the question of the motives behind it. It would seem they didn't necessarily have a problem with the research, but rather with the lead researcher. There's complicated issues of academic freedom to parse here, but in principle, if you aren't happy with the work someone is doing, it's not entirely unreasonable that you'd let them go and have someone else pick up the work.

[deleted]

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#363

Post by tuwtuwtuwtuw »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #299
tuwtuwtuwtuw wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not following your reasoning here. There are people working with the topic that is online disinformation. I know Swedish government have some teams who analyze disinformation campaigns, as an example. Are you saying that people who work with this area cannot be experts on the area?

I can't speak for the OP but take into the current Media Matters "outing" of X over the ad placement next to anti-semitic content. Basically Media Matters juiced the X algorithm to give them less than 10 impressions of big ad spend clients ads next to anti-semitic comments they entered on their own sock puppet accounts (with few or little followers), then passed that contrivance off as truth, stating brand-destroying…

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. It seems quite US-Politics-centric and really doesn't answer the question I asked. If you're upset about things then that's fine but please try to stay on topic.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#364

Post by cbsmith »

cortesoft wrote: post #352
cbsmith wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair, but it raises the question of the motives behind it. It would seem they didn't necessarily have a problem with the research, but rather with the lead researcher. There's complicated issues of academic freedom to parse here, but in principle, if you aren't happy with the work someone is doing, it's not entirely unreasonable that you'd let them go and have someone else pick up the work.

> It would seem they didn't necessarily have a problem with the research, but rather with the lead researcher This is the entire crux of the issue; do they have a problem with the lead researcher because she isn't good at her job or because she is finding things that their large donor doesn't like?

Exactly. It's easy to presume one interpretation, but it's far from clear.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#365

Post by thomastjeffery »

karaterobot wrote: post #349

> [Harvard] also denies that she was fired, saying she “was offered the chance to continue as a part-time adjunct lecturer, and she chose not to do so.” I have not read her filing, or followed her specific research, so I have no opinion about the possible merits or conspiracy theories regarding winding down her project. But, that statement by Harvard is suspicious. You take someone who is high profile, doing their ow…

I don't know how it would be at a Harvard school, but all the adjunct professors I have ever known (working for large, but not ivy-league universities) were making significantly less than the part-time software contractors I have known.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#366

Post by qaq »

drawkward wrote: post #358
qaq wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shocking number of students openly support Hamas and like to chant "from the river to the sea ..." and that just at the surface level. If you look at say UCLA things are far more grim than posting "tone deaf" msgs.

You are conflating use of the phrase "from the river to the sea..." with support for Hamas. The phrase has been used in many ways, and depending on the context, could have different meanings: Benjamin Netanyahu himself was using a map that espoused a "river to the sea" vision of Israel at the UN. [1] A different version "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" was a founding ideological…

Netanyahhu is student or professor at elite US university? There are jewish students marching with Israeli flags chanting "from the river to the sea Isreal will be free" on campuses? Would equivalent behavior be allowed toward any other group on campus?

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#367

Post by specialist »

throw4847285 wrote: post #344
j45 wrote: post #80

Colleges and universities are like little countries, rarely answer to anyone and focused on their own insular practices.

They're more like hedge funds that do some light educating on the side. Especially ones as rich as Harvard.

That's an unfair assessment.

Harvard et al also launder reputations, incubate reactionary movements, serve as a finishing school for the rich and powerful, stoke credentialing (eg grade inflation), and accelerate social inequity. For starters.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#368

Post by golergka »

Draiken wrote: post #361
kbenson wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You jest, but that is how a well functioning free market would handle this problem, I think. As long as the information about the payments is public (and information being available is an integral part of any free market, which some people seem to miss), then paying would be a losing proposition for Facebook in the long run since there's always another person ready to step and and start looking you'd need to pay off.…

There's no such thing as a "well functioning free market". It's an utopia. What we have today is how a free market works. The invisible hand always tipping the scales. They would simply find a better way to get the outcome they want, avoiding the issue altogether (something at the federal level, make an example out of a researcher or institution, etc). The word utopia is used a lot when anything other than capitalism…

Modern world is a utopia by any reasonable historical standard, yes.

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#369

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

cbsmith wrote: post #364
cortesoft wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would seem they didn't necessarily have a problem with the research, but rather with the lead researcher This is the entire crux of the issue; do they have a problem with the lead researcher because she isn't good at her job or because she is finding things that their large donor doesn't like?

Exactly. It's easy to presume one interpretation, but it's far from clear.

Exactly. The evidence* points to the act being corrupt, but the university is free to attempt to convince people otherwise.

* - The researcher being removed without any good cause evident

Re: Ousted propaganda scholar accuses Harvard of bowing to Meta

#370

Post by Arson9416 »

karaterobot wrote: post #355
Arson9416 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bribery exists in every economic system, even before economic systems existed, and is not uniquely connected to the free market. Nor are they connected to "unintended societal consequences", since bribes very clearly have a specific goal. So it doesn't make any sense.

Just wanted to say that you're completely correct and making a very reasonable statement which is not controversial. I would love to hear about an economic system in which bribery did not exist or have influence, but I have not seen any examples of that yet, in the present day or in history. I don't agree that bribes can't have unintended social consequences. They do have specific goals, yes. But some unintended cons…

I agree that they can have unintended consequences, but I wouldn't say any more or less than anything else. This is why I'm struggling with the "invisible hand" analogy, which focuses on a connection to unintended (positive) consequences.
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