Live data from Hacker News

Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

techxplore.com

41–50 of 71 posts

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#41

While it's interesting to explore ancient concrete, actually scalable improvements of concrete production will be made elsewhere. For instance HeidelbergCement has successfully piloted and is currently implementing technologies that bring the CO2 emissions from cement production close to zero. The OxyCal hybrid process that they are deploying in Bulgaria and Belgium will capture >97% of all emissions from the cement…

Does it turn into rusted out rubble in 100 years like the reinforced concrete we use today? I remember reading an article about the longevity of Roman concrete. The best they could come up with was the use of volcanic ash and much slower curing in salt water.

You are correct that reinforced concrete will corrode, generally the service life of reinforced concrete is around 50 years if no special measures are taken. This is because the initial alkalinity of the concrete, which protects the steel, will be neutralized over time. This is the same for modern and for Roman concrete.

But many methods are available both to extend life, and to monitor the health of reinforced concrete. The failures that do occur are typically due to negligent maintenance.

The Romans didn't use steel reinforcement, of course, they just used massive concrete structures. We can do the same today, but it would mean no skyscrapers, no long span bridges, etc.

To be able to build the Pantheon, at 43 meters height, they used walls with a thickness going from 6.4 meters at the base down to just 1.2 meters at the top. In addition they reduced the density of the concrete by almost 50% towards the top, by using very light aggregates.

In comparison the Burj Khalifa at 828 meters heigt has less than a tenth of the wall thickness at the base, just 0.6 meters of reinforced concrete wall thickness in the hexagonal frame.

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European acquaintances often poke fun at our North American wood frame construction, noting their concrete houses are stronger and "will last for centuries." Are they wrong? I know there are a lot of stone buildings that had excellent longevity but those are made of large stone blocks instead of reinforced concrete. And that's just walls, floors in old houses are usually spanned by wood beams (there goes the wood aga…

I think a lot of houses are made of bricks, not necessarily reinforced concrete. Appartement blocks on the other hand is all reinforced concrete I believe.

In the US four to five stories of wood framed apartments over a primarily wood podium garage is a common construction technique. Type IIIA construction.

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#43
post #10

I was a bit shocked when I learned that reinforced concrete only has a lifespan of about 100 years. That means that if you buy a condo in a building built in the 1970s, the building will become unsafe and need to be demolished in your life time. I don't know if people are pricing this consideration. It also means there will be pretty much nothing left of our architecture, all those appartments, offices, museums, brid…

It can be much less, if water gets in and corrodes the rebar.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031245430/surfside-condo-col...

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#44
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The oldest buildings in the world[0] are as old as they are because they use materials with lifespans of much less than 100 years. Instead they make them modular. Make it so that you can take out parts of the building to replace them without collapsing the whole thing. Instead we build our buildings in such a way that makes maintenance very hard and costly. We prefer to pretend like our buildings will last forever ra…

> The oldest buildings in the world[0] are as old as they are because they use materials with lifespans of much less than 100 years. Rather apropos counter-example: Rome's Pantheon is several hundred years older and built in part of concrete.

The ancient Roman concrete was very different from modern: it was more thick, could not ne poured etc. But more importantly, it had no rebar, which is the main thing that corrodes over time. Ancient buildings could use molten lead to join together pieces of stone, but steel could not be made in the volume needed for reinforced structures.

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#45
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The oldest buildings in the world[0] are as old as they are because they use materials with lifespans of much less than 100 years. Instead they make them modular. Make it so that you can take out parts of the building to replace them without collapsing the whole thing. Instead we build our buildings in such a way that makes maintenance very hard and costly. We prefer to pretend like our buildings will last forever ra…

Also in Japan, there has been an increasing use of aluminum (!) in construction, since it will generally be melted and re-used after the structure is no longer useful. https://www.acsa-arch.org/chapter/toyo-itos-second-age-of-al...

What's the problem with aluminium? I would always build structures out of aluminium if aluminium would be strong enough. It has extreme corrosion resistance, it's cheap, it's easy to handle, you can easily make almost any imaginable shape with it, you can cheaply reuse it, it's very light.

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#46
Related - others?

The ancient Roman secret to concrete resilience in seawater (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36585331 - July 2023 (76 comments)

Making Concrete That Lasts 1k Years - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34644295 - Feb 2023 (3 comments)

The Mystery Finally Solved: Why Has Roman Concrete Been So Durable? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34456323 - Jan 2023 (1 comment)

Mystery of Roman Concrete Unraveled - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34353330 - Jan 2023 (1 comment)

The New Science of Strong Materials (1968) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34287101 - Jan 2023 (11 comments)

Why was Roman concrete so durable? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34280239 - Jan 2023 (270 comments)

Why Ancient Roman Concrete Outlasts Our Own (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29366911 - Nov 2021 (67 comments)

2,050-year-old Roman tomb offers insights on ancient concrete resilience - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28833525 - Oct 2021 (101 comments)

The problem with reinforced concrete (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27282927 - May 2021 (186 comments)

Why Roman concrete is stronger than it ever was, while modern concrete decays - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25690803 - Jan 2021 (7 comments)

A chemical reaction in ancient Roman concrete makes it stronger over time (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22580920 - March 2020 (64 comments)

How Ancient Rome’s Concrete Has Survived 2,000 Years (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20482050 - July 2019 (81 comments)

How Did the Romans Make Concrete That Lasts Longer Than Modern Concrete? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15544128 - Oct 2017 (3 comments)

The Rock Solid History of Concrete - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15480165 - Oct 2017 (12 comments)

New studies of ancient concrete could teach us to do as the Romans did - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14690329 - July 2017 (72 comments)

The problem with reinforced concrete - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11975695 - June 2016 (147 comments)

Ancient Roman Concrete Is About to Revolutionize Modern Architecture - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5883443 - June 2013 (23 comments)

How the pantheon has lasted 2000 years without steel in its concrete - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1852000 - Oct 2010 (35 comments)

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#47
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of houses are made of bricks, not necessarily reinforced concrete. Appartement blocks on the other hand is all reinforced concrete I believe.

In the US four to five stories of wood framed apartments over a primarily wood podium garage is a common construction technique. Type IIIA construction.

I can't imagine what the sound insulation between floors must look like.

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in Japan, there has been an increasing use of aluminum (!) in construction, since it will generally be melted and re-used after the structure is no longer useful. https://www.acsa-arch.org/chapter/toyo-itos-second-age-of-al...

What's the problem with aluminium? I would always build structures out of aluminium if aluminium would be strong enough. It has extreme corrosion resistance, it's cheap, it's easy to handle, you can easily make almost any imaginable shape with it, you can cheaply reuse it, it's very light.

Also the low melting point in case of fire.

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#49
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The oldest buildings in the world[0] are as old as they are because they use materials with lifespans of much less than 100 years. Rather apropos counter-example: Rome's Pantheon is several hundred years older and built in part of concrete.

The ancient Roman concrete was very different from modern: it was more thick, could not ne poured etc. But more importantly, it had no rebar, which is the main thing that corrodes over time. Ancient buildings could use molten lead to join together pieces of stone, but steel could not be made in the volume needed for reinforced structures.

Thing is we can use rebar in concrete for indefinately long use if we plan ahead, use sacrificial annodes to stave off corrosion or use stainless steel or use carbonfiber rebar as they won't rust. Hell using a polymer coating on rebar can prevent moisture contacting the surface of steel and rusting but that would require added cost and care when preping to prevent the polymer from being damaged prior to being embedded in concrete.

Re: Experts revive ancient techniques to make concrete more sustainable

#50
C'mon it was right there! From the article -- consisting of experts from EPFL's Archives of Modern Construction (Acm) research group,

Archives of Modern Construction Engineering (ACME) :-)

I am glad that this is being investigated. One of the effects of climate warming is going to be a requirement for a lot of walls and being able to make those walls without aggravating climate warming as much as concrete use does now, is good for us. (it sucks the walls will be needed but alas that ship appears to have sailed).

Post reply on HN