Live data from Hacker News

The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

blogs.lse.ac.uk

41–50 of 239 posts

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#41
post #4

The main issue with Fediverse is the vast majority of people don't know what it is. And I would suspect that most readers of Hacker News only know about Mastodon. The Fediverse needs the same kind of evangelical missionaries that made the free software movement such a big deal.

> The Fediverse needs the same kind of evangelical missionaries Weirdly enough this is likely to be Meta with Threads. Once it adds ActivityPub integration we should start to see a lot of cross-pollination with Mastodon users.

Don't be too sure of that. Plenty of instances have preemptively blocked Meta and it's likely that if and when Threads goes AP, more will follow. Some of us still remember Eternal September and would like to avoid a repeat.

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#42
post #22

My opinion is that it's hard to make the Fediverse work content-wise. The Big Techs have very expensive systems to do content moderation. I (kind of) trust Instagram, or X, or whatever to prevent my daughter from seeing gore or weird porn stuff. It's hard to trust these other platforms. But I'll change my mind if good arguments come up :)

as someone who has actively gone out looking for weird porn on the fediverse, I struggled

you just need to join the right instances ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#43
post #4

The main issue with Fediverse is the vast majority of people don't know what it is. And I would suspect that most readers of Hacker News only know about Mastodon. The Fediverse needs the same kind of evangelical missionaries that made the free software movement such a big deal.

> main issue with Fediverse is the vast majority of people don't know what it is More awareness won't help while the churn is so high. The Fediverse seems to be happy staying small, actively disdaining the sorts of user-friendly moves that would give them mass appeal (but in the process, perhaps, destroy something its current users find special).

> user-friendly moves

Such as? Difficult onboarding?

I still think p2p is the way to go. When I get some time, I want to spin up a little p2p app around sharing ad-free news and commentary. (Articles + photos + threads.)

It can all be ephemeral, because 99% of the use is in the short-term. I rarely if ever access old tweets or Reddit threads.

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#44
post #5

Federation is an example of solving an imaginary problem by creating a bunch of very real problems. Tech people care about the idea of a federated service to avoid a walled garden but this always ignore the practical implementation issues and the lack of a value proposition to users. Take Twiter as an example. It's rapidly deteriorated under Musk's stewardship [1]. Bias aside, quality is down to support a subscriptio…

I'm not sure how much you actually know about this stuff, but this take reads like you fundamentally don't understand the subject.

Most of the problems you pose exist with every social media platform, and only get worse as scale goes up. We can all agree that as user count goes up, abuse and moderation scales as well.

A centralized platform takes all of that moderation load at once. You need a team of people or some crazy moderation software that doesn't work. Abuse runs rampant as the company doesn't want to invest in proper moderation. We see that on twitter, Facebook, tumblr, all of them.

The fediverse aims to solve this problem by limiting scale. Smaller communities are easier to moderate. We see this with forums and chat rooms. When the community is small, they tend to self-police more. People tend to self-identify with that community and actively protect it.

But small communities are small and don't reach far. So we connect these small communities into larger networks. The implementation details of that are IMO pretty much irrelevant, but to answer your question: posts are duplicated throughout the network. Each server caches copies of all incoming posts to serve them directly to their local users. There are downsides to this approach, but the positive is that it crudely balances server load across the network.

Bad actors aren't much of a concern. If you start a server that just blasts spam into the fediverse, the network will quickly drop you. Individual servers have the option to refuse connections from other servers or domains. Server admins actively network with each other to warn of malicious servers. So far it's been incredibly effective.

As a user, you also have the option to block servers or other users. You also have extensive filtering options so that you can effectively moderate your own timeline.

And of course, there's also the drama between server admins blocking each other and harming users by cutting them off from part of the network. The solution I chose was to start up my own server. It took a weekend and operates exactly the same as the big instances I've been on.

When a server shuts down, users can move elsewhere. You can keep all your follows and followers, but lose your post history. That's obviously not ideal, but what were you able to keep when MySpace closed down? It's not perfect, but you can still keep going. Plus there are limited workarounds, but that's not important.

The fediverse has problems, but not the ones you pose.

Ask yourself how one scales a website to tens of millions of users. It's pretty complicated, right? Lots of servers and load balancers and whatever else.

But what about a website for a thousand users? Ten thousand? That's much more doable. That's just a single machine. The magic of federation is linking ten thousand websites run by volunteers that each host only a thousand users into a more or less cohesive network.

No matter which node in the network your account belongs to, you get roughly the same experience. No one has to spend millions filling up a datacenter. Most servers are run on donations from users or out of their admin's pocket. It doesn't cost too terribly much unless you're serving thousands of users.

When one server goes down, even a very large server, the network stays intact and absorbs the load and the users as they migrate. When a server with tens of thousands of users shuts down, we don't see a dramatic drop in total network users. Nearly all of them just move. This makes the network very resilient. No one person can do any meaningful damage to the network as a whole.

Fediverse is far from perfect. And I agree that it won't be a monetized ad- and celebrity-friendly platform like Facebook or twitter. But that's fundamentally misunderstanding what and why it is.

The fediverse is the next logical step from hundreds of small isolated forums. People built and use federated services because they want small communities driven by and for people who simply want to talk to other people. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not going to grow to encompass billions of users because that's simply not the goal.

The goal of the fediverse is simple: give people a place to talk and share with each other that is controlled exclusively by people who want the same thing. No money, no tracking, no corporations, just people talking to other people.

Everyone I know on mastodon is perfectly happy with the way things are. We see a very stable network with slow and steady growth. That's pretty much all we want or need.

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as someone who has actively gone out looking for weird porn on the fediverse, I struggled

you just need to join the right instances ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

any pointers? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#46
post #4

The main issue with Fediverse is the vast majority of people don't know what it is. And I would suspect that most readers of Hacker News only know about Mastodon. The Fediverse needs the same kind of evangelical missionaries that made the free software movement such a big deal.

> main issue with Fediverse is the vast majority of people don't know what it is More awareness won't help while the churn is so high. The Fediverse seems to be happy staying small, actively disdaining the sorts of user-friendly moves that would give them mass appeal (but in the process, perhaps, destroy something its current users find special).

Yes, the appeal the Fediverse is that its lack of mass appeal keeps it away from the inevitable Eternal September or Enshitification or at least delays it.

In a small way, we can have the Internet of old back, the one where in order to participate in communities online, you weren't driven by algorithmic feeds setup to push ads in front of you constantly, or just generally shit posting about whatever pop culture moment.

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> main issue with Fediverse is the vast majority of people don't know what it is More awareness won't help while the churn is so high. The Fediverse seems to be happy staying small, actively disdaining the sorts of user-friendly moves that would give them mass appeal (but in the process, perhaps, destroy something its current users find special).

> user-friendly moves Such as? Difficult onboarding? I still think p2p is the way to go. When I get some time, I want to spin up a little p2p app around sharing ad-free news and commentary. (Articles + photos + threads.) It can all be ephemeral, because 99% of the use is in the short-term. I rarely if ever access old tweets or Reddit threads.

It depends on what you mean by emphemeral because if you mean thr data's existence I would be against it. When I'm new to a domain or topic, I reference old threads all the time. I save links for other people and as reference points for me to dive into later.

Yeah a lot of stuff is what I wouldn't care about 2 minutes after I read it, but the protocol can't really know what any given person will want to come back to.

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#48
post #22

My opinion is that it's hard to make the Fediverse work content-wise. The Big Techs have very expensive systems to do content moderation. I (kind of) trust Instagram, or X, or whatever to prevent my daughter from seeing gore or weird porn stuff. It's hard to trust these other platforms. But I'll change my mind if good arguments come up :)

as someone who has actively gone out looking for weird porn on the fediverse, I struggled

I assume it's better these days, but Mastodon avoided adding proper search for years because the core devs knew there was plenty of questionable content or there and making it discoverable would put many hosts at legal risk.

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#49

The Fediverse is something that we already tried in many different fashions and it was never mass-adopted because it doesn't have the features that people want. It's the API equivalent of people asking for iPhones while nerds keep on throwing Raspberry Pis at them and pretend that they're the same thing if you squint hard enough. It is not the same, it will never be the same, you will never get the masses to adopt it…

What features are missing?

The big barrier to adoption is people and content.

Mastodon has been an okay twitter replacement with its feature set, it’s just missing people.

Threads appears to have succeeded by bootstrapping their platform with major accounts, brands and popular personalities. This isn’t a thing more feature development can solve.

Re: The Fediverse is an opportunity learned societies can't ignore

#50
post #4

The main issue with Fediverse is the vast majority of people don't know what it is. And I would suspect that most readers of Hacker News only know about Mastodon. The Fediverse needs the same kind of evangelical missionaries that made the free software movement such a big deal.

You could run a battery optimized, opportunistically available mastodon instance from your phone, but Apple and Google won't let you. The amount of wasted compute in everyone's hands is staggering.
Post reply on HN