U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#51

Post by ckcheng » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:15 AM UTC

paged90 wrote: post #43

knotty66 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDMA (if that is what you mean, as street 'Ecstasy' can contain any number of other ingredients) is by most metrics one of the safer recreational drugs out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11660210

MDMA isn't -that- harmful. You're assuming when you buy Ecstasy you're being solid pure MDMA, which often is not the case.

E.g. "Police link 25 deaths and counting from tainted Canadian ecstasy"

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/can...

"12th death linked to tainted ecstasy in Alberta, B.C."

http://www.vancouversun.com/12th+death+linked+tainted+ecstas...

"8 Alberta deaths linked to ecstasy-like drug"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/01/31/calga...

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#52

Post by jmtame » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:20 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #28

pjscott wrote: post #6

That's a shame. These guys' lives are going to be seriously messed up by this, and from the drug list, it looks like they were selling fairly ethical stuff; according to the article, they sold "LSD, ecstasy, fentanyl, mescaline ketamine, DMT and high-end marijuana".

Ecstasy is horribly nasty stuff. People rarely OD, but it can vary quickly do significant and permanent brain damage with heavy use. The real problem is when the symptoms show up they are basically permanent. Honestly, prolonged heroin use is significantly less harmful, the only good thing about ecstasy is the unpleasant side effects and fairly long high limit how much people take.

There are two major misconceptions around MDMA, both funded by flawed government studies. The first misconception is that MDMA causes "holes in your brain" but this study was debunked. The original claim was based on the notion that MDMA "destroys up to 80% of your serotonin neurotransmitters irreversibly." This was shown to not be true for two reasons: a much larger study (the largest study ever conducted on MDMA use) showed that it's only possible for MDMA to affect up to 5% of your serotonin levels, and it's reversible after a period of weeks or months of nonuse.

The second major misconception is that MDMA causes Parkinson's. The original study was retracted because the drug manufacturer mislabeled the MDMA bottle as Methamphetamine, a completely different drug. They gave the Methamphetamine to monkeys instead of MDMA.

I would recommend checking this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjvNCijeYlI

Skip to part 3 if you're wanting to get to the scientific studies.

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#53

Post by simcop2387 » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:22 AM UTC

rorrr wrote: post #49

BigTigger wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they were using bitcoins to anonymize some transactions. The hardest thing for a regular consumer I would think would be finding a drop point. Drugs and things sent through the mail would be fairly easy to track to a consumer who could then be charged for possession.

> Drugs and things sent through the mail would be fairly easy to track to a consumer Yeah, how?

Assuming they found them in the mail during transit using xray or some other method since they were in canada, shipping to US goes through customs which has special rules allowing that, then they can look at who is receiving the package and then they get them to squeal on who the dealer was.

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#54

Post by reustle » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:23 AM UTC

Blunt wrote: post #50

rorrr wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that only idiots get caught. If you read the article, it was a tiny operation considering the global illegal drug market. They only sold $1M worth of drugs in three years, that's silly. They didn't catch some big fish criminals, they caught some idiot kids who thought they could easily make money.

"My theory is that only idiots get caught" No, only idiots do this to begin with.

As much as I agree, do you realize how big the active drug trade is? There are a lot of very smart people out there.

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#55

Post by pippy » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:30 AM UTC

ckcheng wrote: post #51

paged90 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDMA isn't -that- harmful. You're assuming when you buy Ecstasy you're being solid pure MDMA, which often is not the case.

E.g. "Police link 25 deaths and counting from tainted Canadian ecstasy" http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/can... "12th death linked to tainted ecstasy in Alberta, B.C." http://www.vancouversun.com/12th+death+linked+tainted+ecstas... "8 Alberta deaths linked to ecstasy-like drug" http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/01/31/calga...

It's not fair to call tainted ecstasy deaths a result of drug use. Despite the fact tainted ecstasy is technically not ecstasy, if the industry was regulated it wouldn't happen.

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#56

Post by Retric » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:33 AM UTC

knotty66 wrote: post #36

Retric wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ecstasy is horribly nasty stuff. People rarely OD, but it can vary quickly do significant and permanent brain damage with heavy use. The real problem is when the symptoms show up they are basically permanent. Honestly, prolonged heroin use is significantly less harmful, the only good thing about ecstasy is the unpleasant side effects and fairly long high limit how much people take.

MDMA (if that is what you mean, as street 'Ecstasy' can contain any number of other ingredients) is by most metrics one of the safer recreational drugs out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11660210

MDMA is not old enough to show it's long term effects the way smoking or drinking has.

One study of 52 users that where hand selected out of 1500 that showed no cognitive impairment. http://www.addictionjournal.org/viewpressrelease.asp?pr=147 Others studies both before and after have demonstrated issues. The problem is it's hard to find good data on individuals before they started heavy use, and sleep deprivation and dehydration are linked to long term cognitive impairment.

However, if you look at the existing literature there is no large scale and long term study's demonstrating it's safety. And a lot of evidence that MDMA is dangerous.

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#57

Post by Retric » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:35 AM UTC

jmtame wrote: post #52

Retric wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ecstasy is horribly nasty stuff. People rarely OD, but it can vary quickly do significant and permanent brain damage with heavy use. The real problem is when the symptoms show up they are basically permanent. Honestly, prolonged heroin use is significantly less harmful, the only good thing about ecstasy is the unpleasant side effects and fairly long high limit how much people take.

There are two major misconceptions around MDMA, both funded by flawed government studies. The first misconception is that MDMA causes "holes in your brain" but this study was debunked. The original claim was based on the notion that MDMA "destroys up to 80% of your serotonin neurotransmitters irreversibly." This was shown to not be true for two reasons: a much larger study (the largest study ever conducted on MDMA us…

I gave a little more detail here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3850923 But, while the holes in the brain and Parkinson's where not accurate there is significant evidence that MDMA causes issues and it's not old enough for a lot of long term issues to show up.

PS: My mother has a PHD in neurology with a focus on brain development and MDMA is the drug she was most frightened of. Not that that actually means much in the grand scheme of things, but she has done a lot more literature review of MDMA than I or I suspect anyone on HN has done.

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#58

Post by jmtame » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:39 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #57

jmtame wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two major misconceptions around MDMA, both funded by flawed government studies. The first misconception is that MDMA causes "holes in your brain" but this study was debunked. The original claim was based on the notion that MDMA "destroys up to 80% of your serotonin neurotransmitters irreversibly." This was shown to not be true for two reasons: a much larger study (the largest study ever conducted on MDMA us…

I gave a little more detail here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3850923 But, while the holes in the brain and Parkinson's where not accurate there is significant evidence that MDMA causes issues and it's not old enough for a lot of long term issues to show up. PS: My mother has a PHD in neurology with a focus on brain development and MDMA is the drug she was most frightened of. Not that that actually means much…

Nobody knows what happens to long term chronic users of MDMA. But we do know that the propaganda that was spread by US government funded studies has been debunked. Scare tactics should be treated with strong skepticism. Before club users got their hands on it and it got banned in 1985 (against a federal judge's recommendation nonetheless), MDMA was a perfectly acceptable drug used by monks, priests and therapists for couples therapy.

Edit: can you please link up the studies you're referring to?

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#59

Post by gonehome » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:42 AM UTC

BigTigger wrote: post #32

milesskorpen wrote: post #7

5,200 orders valued, in total, at $1M. Over a ~2 year period. That's it? Hardly seems like much of a story. Particularly since Tor is of limited use when your system depends on electronic payment systems.

I believe they were using bitcoins to anonymize some transactions. The hardest thing for a regular consumer I would think would be finding a drop point. Drugs and things sent through the mail would be fairly easy to track to a consumer who could then be charged for possession.

I don't think these guys used bitcoin, I think you're thinking of silkroad (another tor based drug network that wired wrote about a while back). As far as I know silkroad is still operating - although I don't have tor set up so don't know.

Re: U.S. busts Tor drug market, arrests eight

#60

Post by loverobots » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 3:44 AM UTC

rorrr wrote: post #46

cookiecaper wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understand why people have such a fundamentally difficult time grasping the concept of plaintext and/or subpoenas. If someone knows enough to trade drugs on Tor, they definitely should be using strong encryption on anything and everything pertaining to it, including email. Month after month handfuls of new stories come out about someone outed and/or owned by emails or other plaintext communication that was no…

My theory is that only idiots get caught. If you read the article, it was a tiny operation considering the global illegal drug market. They only sold $1M worth of drugs in three years, that's silly. They didn't catch some big fish criminals, they caught some idiot kids who thought they could easily make money.

Big criminals arrange for 120 tons to be shipped to San Diego, but the last mile has to sell it. When you make a few dollars at a time in profit, you need new customers, over and over again. Thee big dealer can also get lucky once and retire, not so for the small fish.

Acting as a user wanting to buy drugs online is the easiest thing for an undercover DEA agent. And then they can use full power of the US Government to find out the rest.

Bottom line: do not sell drugs online day in and day out, you will get caught.