Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

ravynos.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 186 posts

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#171

Post by clnq »

creatonez wrote: post #70
rollcat wrote: post #58

It's nice that more people in the FOSS community take note of macOS's design and (historically, at least) attention to detail. However, this project (judging by the screenshots, which is how everyone is going to judge you if you claim to be inspired by Apple's work), they're already making serious (but fixable) mistakes: https://ravynos.com/images/ravyn_0.4.0_pre_desktop.png > - What the actual heck is that window bo…

What should WIP software look like? There was a time when the 1998 beta for macOS, called Rhapsody, looked horrible and disjoint. There was also a time when the iPhone looked like this - https://i.imgur.com/wwH2UoF.jpg

> There was also a time when the iPhone looked like this - https://i.imgur.com/wwH2UoF.jpg

Yes, but you are straw-manning the argument. This is skankphone UI - a UI used by the technical team building back-end services and features for the original iPhone. The actual UI was being built in parallel, and obviously it never looked like that.

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#172

Post by clnq »

dubcanada wrote: post #139
titaniumtown wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RavynOS aims for partial binary compatibility with macOS.

What does that mean? It can partially run some trivial macOS apps? The amount of effort just to get basic programs working seems like a ton of effort, for a end project that is just buggy implement of a moving target. Unlike Windows, MacOS has no problem ignoring backward compatibility. So Wine works be rewriting older APIs and Microsoft always works on backward compatibility, MacOS does not do that. It just works or…

I also wonder what that means. What target would this software be compiled for? Apple Silicon or x86?

If x86, then some feasible but difficult approaches exist, such as a translation layer or providing own reverse-engineered APIs. It would be tremendously difficult to achieve practical usability beyond very limited cases. However, by the time it could be done, won't the x86 macOS target be entirely obsolete?

If the target is Apple Silicon, it makes even less sense. The instruction set is ARM + Apple's mods which are proprietary. Moreover, they keep iterating on that instruction set and making new software alongside it. What's to stop Apple from using a Rosetta approach to run their M2 code on M1? If they have a translation layer, they don't need backwards compatibility in the instruction set.

So reverse-engineering would be extraordinarily hard - like, beyond human capability for a small team with no insider leaks out of Apple. Can this project keep reverse-engineering the instructions fast enough as Apple iterates on the arch? Not in reality. x86 is hard but this is that, and a moving target (pun intended).

So... how?

EDIT: Upon looking into it more, it looks like they want to use x86 translation layer Darling + open-source APIs. This seems more like running (maybe) basic GUI applications compiled for Apple's x86 targets that do not rely too heavily on the Apple ecosystem's APIs. So more for fun than for robust day-to-day compatibility akin to Rosetta. So I guess then it doesn't matter that it's a dying target, as it's more of a theoretical thing?

The idea is nice, I don't want to dismiss it. I think attempting it could be a lot of fun. They're kind of brave to call it a project aim though, I don't think it's wise to set such expectations.

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#173

Post by omnimus »

barbariangrunge wrote: post #76
rollcat wrote: post #58

It's nice that more people in the FOSS community take note of macOS's design and (historically, at least) attention to detail. However, this project (judging by the screenshots, which is how everyone is going to judge you if you claim to be inspired by Apple's work), they're already making serious (but fixable) mistakes: https://ravynos.com/images/ravyn_0.4.0_pre_desktop.png > - What the actual heck is that window bo…

The aspiration to be on par is cool and over time, hopefully they pull it off. But it probably comes down to them having some dedicated graphic designers and Ux designers (and an audio person would be nice too), and foss projects have historically done poorly at recruiting those people.

Its worse than recruiting. The main issue is foss projects work poorly with designers. Even if you have good designers their powers tend to diminish. Once any disagreement comes up if you cant code, if you cant PR it… wont happen.

Also design is super hard to modularize and split into small pieces. With code random anybody can come and build/fix a feature. Not possible with design. Its mostly big picture work where you need to have deep context and follow it to get desired consistency. For projects like OS gui that requires huge commitment (most likely full time).

But i think copying existing well made software can make this a lot easier. Just need to be very diligent about it and not ashamed (and its a lot less creative work).

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#174

Post by rollcat »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #166
rollcat wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, it's right in the FAQ: > I don't code but this looks awesome! Can I still help? > Absolutely! There will be art, documentation, testing, UX and UI work, [...]. I read this and immediately think the project sees UX as "I can't write code ell oh ell". You need to treat a UX role the same way you treat a kernel hacker role - it's a specialist whose input you must respect, or be left to deal with the consequences.

I think you're reading too much into it. Saying "if you aren't a programmer you might be able to help in various ways, including UX" isn't the same as saying "UX doesn't require any particular skills".

True, but this is literally the only mention of the words "UX", "UI" or "design" in the FAQ/docs; meanwhile they write at length about the various technical challenges and choices. This is inconsistent with their own tagline.

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#175

Post by latexr »

fkyoureadthedoc wrote: post #72
latexr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you’re going a bit overboard. I am not. I speak from vast experience of trying multiple approaches. Maybe English is the first language wherever you live. That’s not the case for the majority of the world. Even if my friends and I have a good grasp of the English language, switching mid-sentence causes a delay in understanding. It’s not just “raven with a y instead of an e”¹ but “raven, as in ², but with a…

>I guarantee that would need to be repeated multiple times, with the other person having to take out their phone and asking questions in the midst of typing, and I’d still have to check and they’d have it wrong first time. Definitely not. I'd just tell the raven os and let them google it. Google would find it anyway. Which I know you didn't even try before writing this italics laden diatribe because the bigger issue…

> Definitely not.

Definitely yes. Again, speaking from experience. Yours may be different, but don’t discount mine.

> I'd just tell the raven os and let them google it.

You missed the point entirely. With each step they have to do, you lose someone. The point is to reduce friction so there is a better chance the other person follows the recommendation. You don’t seem to care if the other person ends up searching for or finding the right thing, in which case you’re irrelevant to the point. The conversation is about people trying to maximise success of a recommendation being acted upon.

> Google would find it anyway.

You seem to be unaware, but Google shows different results to different people. All it shows me for several results is a movie called “ravenous”. To other people it shown multiple unrelated projects. At this point you’ve already lost several people.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38487444

> Which I know you didn't even try

Yes, I did. And I didn’t get what I was looking for. I was expecting to get at least the web browser but even that did not show up. Please don’t assume you know what other people do or do not do.

> because the bigger issue is that the name is already taken

No, that is not an issue at all. No one made them choose “raven”, a name already in use by multiple projects. The solution to “this name already exists” isn’t “let’s replace a letter”.

> before writing this italics laden diatribe

You appear to be irrationally angry about this matter. It’s just an internet conversation about naming, it’s not worth raising your blood pressure for. I wish you a calm weekend.

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#176

Post by actuallyalys »

FullyFunctional wrote: post #167
giancarlostoro wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather they just use KDE and make a nice skin that has a similar scheme to Apples. KDE looks sleek on its own, and then make keybindings as close to Apples as possible. Heck, KDE3 used to have a wizard that asked if you were more accustomed to Mac, Windows or Linux, and set your key bindings that way. You can get insanely close with KDE, and KDE apps all follow a standard UI approach and the theming will tran…

The main thing I miss whenever I try yet-another mac-like skin is keybindings that actually work. I have decadeS of muscle memory, so when keyboard binding are different, I instantly bail. Now I understand why that's hard (this is all implemented individually by each app), but it's a non-starter without this.

Konto goes a long way in my experience: https://kinto.sh/

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#177

Post by chrsw »

pipeline_peak wrote: post #46

> We’ve got your apps covered No you dont, RavynOS and HelloSystem are mediocre wrapper projects. Put your efforts towards GNUStep, don’t run with it and making something pretty. If GNUStep worked, it could be ran on Unix like systems people actually use like Ubuntu. This project is going to fail with “finesse”.

I agree, I think it's better to more effort into GNUStep. That's something that feels like it can be part of the foundation of a real platform.

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#178

Post by Assassink786 »

viraptor wrote: post #164
cristeigabriel wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To advertise "finesse of macOS", you should deliver on that

You advertise what you're aiming for, not what you've just achieved. Do you really want some alpha level software with description "an app that draws some windows and sometimes doesn't crash", or do you want to know what the author has in mind for when it's finished?

It is easy to say that thing but hard to work on Try creating something similar

Re: RavynOS Finesse of macOS. Freedom of FreeBSD

#180

Post by latexr »

computershit wrote: post #78
latexr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just a case of liking names, they should also be functional ¹ in terms of spreadability. If this OS eventually does what it is meant to do, I will want to tell people about it and get them to try it. When making a recommendation in a social setting, there’s a tiny window to get the other person interested in whatever you’re suggesting they watch/play/try. If the name is hard to understand, difficult to remem…

If the product slaps, the product name is immaterial.

Objectively not true.

https://blog.ongig.com/diversity-and-inclusion/alleged-racis...

Post reply on HN