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Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#71

Post by bombcar »

floxy wrote: post #63
bombcar wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My suggestion that we move to an 18-24 month gestation were rejected and so a vehicle available today was needed. Hopefully it does well, but it would be nice to see EV minivans competitive with the low-end instead of being luxury items.

I'm as sticker shocked about inflation as anyone, is there a new minivan that is less expensive than the Kia Carnival (starts at $33,200)? Assuming $40k for the ID.Buzz, minus a $7,500 tax credit, gives about the same ball-park price. https://www.kia.com/us/en/carnival-mpv

Carnival is what we went with, but after all and sundry, it was $41k out the door (to be fair, we went up a trim level).

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#72

Post by mlsu »

Abroszka wrote: post #9
nwvg_7257 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumer report says hybrids are more reliable than ICE and EVs https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s... "Overall, hybrids have 26 percent fewer problems than cars powered by internal combustion engines (ICE)."

Seems fishy to me. How can a more complex device (ICE + EV) be more reliable than a pure ICE or EV? Also seems like a crap website, their chart show 79% more problems as red and then 26% fever as green.

Most mechanical stresses in the drivetrain are transient and happen in the transmission. In the engine, they happen in the "out of band" power regimes -- very low and very high RPM.

The hybrid moves those transient "stresses," and the imparted maintenance thereof, into the electrical system. The engine never sees them.

This unlocks additional efficiencies. For example, the Prius uses the more fuel efficient Atkinson cycle engine. This is not possible in a standard car, because it cannot provide enough power in those transient regimes. You also get things like regenerative braking which help prolong brake life.

And, there's probably a bit of selection bias as well. I could see that the type of someone who buys a Prius is the type to not thrash it. That probably makes it appear more reliable in the statistics.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#73

Post by bryanlarsen »

nwvg_7257 wrote: post #67
bryanlarsen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PHEV's are significantly less reliable, though. HEV's and PHEV's should have a similar level of reliability. The difference is that HEV's are mostly Toyotas and PHEV's mostly aren't. My impression is that non-Toyota hybrids are significantly less reliable than gasoline cars, but the article doesn't give enough data to tell for sure.

You might be right. It says one of the only reliable PHEVs is the Toyota RAV4 prime. Still, I would expect the hybrid Camry to be more reliable than the gas Camry. Simpler transmission, engine turns off when idle, doesn't need to rev as high because of the electric assist.

Sure. Hybrids should be more reliable than gasoline vehicles. But often people point at this article to say that hybrids are more reliable than electric cars, and is why I push back. That's just cherry picking. That statement is hiding behind the stronger facts that Toyotas are more reliable than Teslas and the first year of a new model is less reliable than others.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#74

Post by hulitu »

Yhippa wrote: post #14

I was very close to buying an EV this summer but ended up not getting it. It felt like I could get an equivalent ICE car for about $20K cheaper. I did a lot of research about EV charging and the more I read the more I felt I didn't understand how it would practically work. I make a long trip every month or so and it sounds like the EV charging network isn't quite to where the point where it's as easy, quick, and cost…

> I did a lot of research about EV charging and the more I read the more I felt I didn't understand how it would practically work

You carry the gas station with you. From time to time you need to charge at a bigger gas station.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#75

Post by newsclues »

Abroszka wrote: post #4
newsclues wrote: post #2

Hybrids will spur adoption faster and cheaper than anything

Hybrids doesn't make sense to me. If you need a car that runs on gas then make it a proper ICE car. Why put two engines into one? Seems super wasteful.

It's about getting more people using EV more often, and efficiently using the limited resources required for EVs.

Please go read about Toyota's strategy. If you have enough Lithium for 1000 EV batteries, or 10,000 hybrid batteries, it seems pretty easy to see how it is better for everyone, especially given average trip distance.

Not sure why hybrids don't make sense to you, have you done the research to consider all aspects of the change, or are you focused on a specific factor like reliability or wastefulness of the parts used? Don't you think it's wasteful to put a massive battery in a car to give it a long range that will be rarely used in most trips?

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#76

Post by heyjamesknight »

losteric wrote: post #16
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Nah. People don't want small cars. Don't try to sell them yet another Bolt or Leaf they won't buy while the inventory languishes on some sad dealer lot until the model is discontinued due to anemic sales. Focus on revealed preference, not what consumers say they want. > Yes, it’s true that the Ford F-150 remained the most popular vehicle sold in America last year. No surprise. It has been for 40 years. In fact, the F…

Who's buying those F-150s and how amenable are they to EVs? It's not enough to just look at what's most popular if the underlying demographics are more resistant to EVs on an ideological basis.

I belong to a social group of dads from my son’s school. Most of them are blue collar conservatives. They all have pickups.

Not one is opposed to electric, as long as the details make sense.

But these are camping, fishing, hunting folk. Even the Lightning, which is an awesome product all around, doesn’t have the range+charging network to make it useable away from the home.

So for now, they’ll buy another ICE truck. But they’re absolutely open to it.

Very, very few people are opposed to electric for “ideological reasons.”

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