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The Case That Could Destroy the Government

theatlantic.com

81–85 of 85 posts

Re: The Case That Could Destroy the Government

#81
post #79
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, what changed in next 50 years to completely change the attitudes? The answer is that the American system of law and government has been slowly but steadily destroyed, and replaced with a related, but ultimately different legal and political regime. What you describe is a consequence of another, more-nuanced phenomenon at work: Over time, the population of the U.S. has increased, and the political demographics h…

> What you describe is a consequence of another, more-nuanced phenomenon at work: Over time, the political demographics of the U.S. have changed I agree, but in my view the relevant demographic change was mass immigration from continental European countries outside the Anglo legal tradition, which resulted in the election of a President that threatened the Supreme Court until it relented and effectively rewrote the C…

> which resulted in the election of a President that threatened the Supreme Court until it relented and effectively rewrote the Constitution.

You're referring, of course, to the "conservative" Supreme Court majority that, in the mid-1930s, kept invalidating the emergency legislation enacted by FDR and a Democratic Congress to cope with the global disaster of the Great Depression, and to FDR's (ultimately-abortive) effort to pack the Court in response.

Dealing effectively with the Great Depression was evidently less important to the SCOTUS conservatives than was fidelity to a cramped interpretation of the Constitution and of the role of the federal government. That interpretation had hamstrung the Hoover government from dealing with the crisis; state governments weren't getting the job done either (and couldn't).

In 1930-32, Hoover and the GOP seemed to be fixated on conforming to that "conservative" view of the role of government. It got them tossed out of office on their asses and losing political power for decades.

In contrast, FDR and the Democrats took an expansive view of the role of government. They gave priority to trying to fix the problems affecting so many. Voters rewarded that thinking by keeping the Dems in power for decades.

One can conjecture that FDR's landslide victory in 1936 was because many people know comparatively little about "the Constitution." To many, "the law" is something for others to concern themselves with; what matters to them is whether the government is getting results, helping to mitigate people's problems while not interfering unduly in their lives. FDR recognized that; Hoover, the GOP, and the conservative SCOTUS majority seemed not to.

(In a similar vein: There's a piece in today's NY Times about how Hamas is gaining support in the West Bank because of releases of Palestinians held prisoner by the Israelis. [0] As my late dad used to say: If your rain dance doesn't produce rain, people aren't likely to care that you faithfully followed the prescribed dance steps — what they care about is results.)

Short-sighted thinking? Maybe. But it's a brute fact: Many, many people view the world in that way; they get to vote — or to take up arms ....

Doubtless you know the saying about the Supreme Court's collective change of heart in the late 1930s: "A switch in time saved Nine." That switch conceivably saved the country from revolution — possibly even of the kind that led to catastrophe for Germany in 1933, in Italy in 1922, and Russia in 1917.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/world/middleeast/west-ban...

Re: The Case That Could Destroy the Government

#82
post #80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you describe is a consequence of another, more-nuanced phenomenon at work: Over time, the political demographics of the U.S. have changed I agree, but in my view the relevant demographic change was mass immigration from continental European countries outside the Anglo legal tradition, which resulted in the election of a President that threatened the Supreme Court until it relented and effectively rewrote the C…

> It's theoretically possible that Senators representing a minority of voters could block an amendment, but it doesn't actually split that way in practice. Biden carried 25.5 states (excluding DC) which exactly reflects his 51% of the popular vote. Obama in 2008 carried 28.5 states (57%) with 53% of the popular vote. That's useful info. (I'm assuming accuracy.)

EDIT: I just realized what you did with your Biden and Obama examples. Counterexamples: Bush the Younger and Trump were both elected despite losing the popular vote — in Trump's case, bigly.

Re: The Case That Could Destroy the Government

#83
post #82
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's theoretically possible that Senators representing a minority of voters could block an amendment, but it doesn't actually split that way in practice. Biden carried 25.5 states (excluding DC) which exactly reflects his 51% of the popular vote. Obama in 2008 carried 28.5 states (57%) with 53% of the popular vote. That's useful info. (I'm assuming accuracy.)

EDIT: I just realized what you did with your Biden and Obama examples. Counterexamples: Bush the Younger and Trump were both elected despite losing the popular vote — in Trump's case, bigly.

But that’s my point. Trump won more states than his share of the popular vote by winning some of the exact same states by which Obama won more states than his share of the popular vote. Clinton did the same thing, twice (even if you give half of Perot’s votes to him). What you’re talking about isn’t a structural disadvantage to Democrats. In fact it’s a natural advantage to Democrats, who are in theory the party in opposition to concentrated capital in Wall Street and Silicon Valley.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with amendments. It only makes a difference in very close elections (0.5% for Bush, 2.0% for Trump). In any case it makes a difference you’re nowhere close to the mandate for amending the constitution anyway.

Re: The Case That Could Destroy the Government

#84
post #83
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I just realized what you did with your Biden and Obama examples. Counterexamples: Bush the Younger and Trump were both elected despite losing the popular vote — in Trump's case, bigly.

But that’s my point. Trump won more states than his share of the popular vote by winning some of the exact same states by which Obama won more states than his share of the popular vote. Clinton did the same thing, twice (even if you give half of Perot’s votes to him). What you’re talking about isn’t a structural disadvantage to Democrats. In fact it’s a natural advantage to Democrats, who are in theory the party in o…

> you’re nowhere close to the mandate for amending the constitution anyway.

And that's my point. We can think of government as a complex machine controlled by software that's designed to limit what the machine's operators can do:

• The prerequisites for updating the software are onerous.

• The updating process is jealously "guarded" by any number of special interests who wield outsized influence and, by and large, prefer things the way they are, thank you.

So as a practical matter, it's essentially impossible to update the machine's software — even when updates would be useful to accommodate changes in circumstances.

No competent engineer would regard that as acceptable. (It's a bit reminiscent of the liberum veto in the Sejm [parliament] of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [0], albeit not quite as bad.) Small wonder that lawyers have responded by hacking the system, using, e.g., the 14th Amendment and the All-Writs Act.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto

Re: The Case That Could Destroy the Government

#85
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of clean water is a local concern? Yeah, I guess some communities are more concened than others...

Is it your supposition that states can't define it?

They are free to define it locally in a more strict way than federal gov/agencies do.
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