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HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

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Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#181

Post by handy2000 »

slapo wrote: post #179
handy2000 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC non-table based layouts are rendered progressively, while table-based layouts have to be loaded fully first, and only then rendered. At the point when this was relevant, the Web was slow (slow connections, slow rendering engines), so one of the primary motivations for ditching tables for layouts was an increase in the perceived page rendering speed, not just a purist quirk.

I don't think that's accurate. It was old Internet Explorer that wouldn't render tables progressively. See here, where it includes a demo: https://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=161099 Non-table layouts also came into fashion when screen resolutions started to vary more, and some degree of fluidity and responsiveness could've been implemented with non-table layouts while IE was still a target. However, IE w…

> I don't think that's accurate. It was old Internet Explorer that wouldn't render tables progressively.

You both agree and disagree with my comment :)

If memory serves me right, I started migrating off table layouts at the time when IE6 was still by far the most popular browser (>80% of the market?).

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#182

Post by scotty79 »

fifilura wrote: post #41

Using tables for layout is pretty understandable. But when tables went out of fashion it was all about using floats for layout for a few years. That was wild, I am surprised it was left out from that list. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/CSS/CSS_layou... "Originally for floating images inside blocks of text, the float property became one of the most commonly used tools for creating multiple column layo…

I'd say that using floats to make columns and rows in layouts was way worse hack.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#183

Post by mike_hock »

willsmith72 wrote: post #32

Is responsive design really a hack? Media queries are awesome Putting that stuff in css vs having conditional logic in the javascript is a huge win, esp when you want to ssr

It is when then query doesn't query what you want to know but something that happens to correlate with the thing that you actually need.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#184

Post by sgc »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #118
jart wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Floating divs killed the Dreamweaver. CSS came and broke your heart. Oh, a, a, a, oh.

We browse through Wayback and it seems so long ago... I met your children -- what did you tell them?

I told them to behave, but I don't know if they listened, because my old ears are plugged up, and I can only barely hear them. Hee dee hee, hee dee ho

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#185

Post by alberth »

IE for Mac was great.

People forget that IE for Mac was the best & most standards compliant browser for Mac ~25 years ago.

All of the “IE hate”, was only directed at the Windows version … not the Mac version.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac

Here’s Gruber also saying it was great.

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/01/06/grewel-ie-5-mac

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#188

Post by chrisfinazzo »

zlg_codes wrote: post #167
_fat_santa wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to develop some email templates a while back for the first time and was almost shocked that they still use the "tables method" for layouts. Overall I'd say developing email templates now is much like developing websites in the early 2000's, email clients have such a wider range of CSS support that there are hacks all around. We now have frameworks like MJML and Foundation that do their best to abstract all that…

E-mail was never meant to support HTML, though, and it's a major vector for attacks. I wish more servers would disallow or strip HTML from their incoming messages. Generally speaking, if I see an HTML e-mail I know the other end cares NOTHING about security or efficiency, and is actively trying to snoop on me with analytics. Not surprising you had to fall back to very old HTML to hit a common featureset.

As I’ve been converting from .docx to HTML, I was pleasantly surprised to find that using flexbox to lay out three elements in a single row is perfectly fine and - bonus points- the CSS doesn’t make want to gouge my eyes out.

To your point that HTML can be a security risk, I remember interviewing at The College Board in mid 2011 and finding out that they still sent critical information - think testing admission tickets - with a MIME type of text/plain.

If you need to guarantee delivery and readability, no matter where people are getting the message, I don’t see how you can do it any other way.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#189

Post by chrisfinazzo »

dylan604 wrote: post #106
cantSpellSober wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked article includes an example of the "commented backslash hack," a variation on point #3 in this article Fell out of use because "nobody uses IE for Mac" :)

IE for Mac was so atrocious, there's a chapter dedicated to it in iWoz.

As I understand it - I was a bit young when it happened, so all I have are secondhand accounts - IE 5 on Mac was substantially better that other browsers due in part to its CSS support.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#190

Post by Izkata »

jenscow wrote: post #125
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to comment that I took offense to calling table-based layout a hack in the first place. When tables went out of favor, and I saw many, many front end dev teams waste cumulative months of time creating a much less understandable web page fiddling with float nonsense all over the place, solely so "purists" could keep their religion in tact, I learned a valuable lesson. Joel Spolsky calls them "Architecture…

For sure. While tables went out of fashion, there was nothing usable to replace them. I was not really interested if those doing a "View Source" are going to be offended by my "incorrect" use of tables.

Check out a "View Source" on HN ;)
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