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Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

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Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#311
post #291
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might imply few to many to you, but to other people it implies not earned. Implication is often a highly personal thing.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/distribute Roughly, literally, "to give apart", i.e., to break up a resource from fewer to more owners. I'm a big fan of poststructuralism but social spaces generally require that people understand each other. We can't just go redefining words on personal whims unless the people you're communicating with have consented to be a part of that metatextual process. This isn't that kind of…

Literally nothing in the definitions you're linking to mentions anything about owners. And the definitions given at points just re-enforce the ambiguity. Definition 5 is "To apportion (more or less evenly)." I think one could reasonably read "more or less evenly" to mean "either more evenly or less evenly" or "relatively evenly".

The definitions for "distribution" rather than "distribute" only weaken your narrow view further. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/distribution

Definitions include "An apportionment by law (of funds, property)" and critically "The apportionment of income or wealth in a population" with the example usage "The wealth distribution became extremely skewed in the kleptocracy." I.e. becoming extremely skewed didn't mean it was no longer a "distribution" in virtue of being concentrated.

And especially in a space where lots of people have a technical background, we're very likely to be thinking of the wealth distribution explicitly as a probability distribution (also listed as a separate definition), _especially_ we've already used the concept of quantiles on that distribution. Englishing flexibly, I think it's totally reasonable for "distribution" to refer to either the function assigning probability mass, _or_ to the act or process of making such a function true.

People in this thread are mostly using this word in a reasonable way. You're the one seeking to redefine words by insisting that only an entropy-increasing change is a "distribution".

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#312
post #86
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are devolving to the status quo from the nineteen century and before. A couple owners of inherited wealth and huge dispossessed masses.

This is true if you view the world from a zero-sum perspective. If the rich are winning, then the poor must be losing. But I would argue the world is not zero-sum. Modern life for middle class or poor class people is a lot better than the vast majority of history (the 2 notable exceptions are post WWII USA and post Cold War USA, when America was punched through as an undisputed global superpower). We are a looooonnng…

> But I would argue the world is not zero-sum.

The world is complex. Some things are zero-sum (like land), some are not (like education).

While the low/middle class are certainly more comfortable these days, there is not yet enough evidence that this can be done sustainably in perpetuity. After all, if the entire world lived like the average US citizen, we'd quickly run out of resources (another zero-sum example, btw)

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#313
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The foundation doesn't have to be cushy in itself. The family members already inherit enough money to satisfy all of their material desires. You don't even need to be a billionaire to satisfy all of your material desires. Beyond a certain point, wealth is simply power, and the foundations give power to the families. What I see from the billionaires is a desire to undermine democratically elected governments, starving…

>> I would be more impressed if billionaires gave away 99% of their wealth to somewhere that is completely out of the control of themselves and their families Warren Buffett has already given away stock worth more than his current net worth, and the main beneficiary has been the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. His will gives more than 99% of his remaining net worth to philanthropy.

> the main beneficiary has been the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

In other words, a billionaire-controlled foundation.

But also: "Warren Buffett is donating about $870 million to four family-run foundations" "the Susan Thompson Buffett Foundation, which is named after his wife" "three charities run by his children" "Last year, he donated about $750 million to the same foundations. He’s been making the same donations yearly since 2006." https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/22/business/warren-buffett-thank...

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#314
post #311
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/distribute Roughly, literally, "to give apart", i.e., to break up a resource from fewer to more owners. I'm a big fan of poststructuralism but social spaces generally require that people understand each other. We can't just go redefining words on personal whims unless the people you're communicating with have consented to be a part of that metatextual process. This isn't that kind of…

Literally nothing in the definitions you're linking to mentions anything about owners. And the definitions given at points just re-enforce the ambiguity. Definition 5 is "To apportion (more or less evenly)." I think one could reasonably read "more or less evenly" to mean "either more evenly or less evenly" or "relatively evenly". The definitions for "distribution" rather than "distribute" only weaken your narrow view…

That's a lot of contortion to attempt a defiance of etymology. And anyway the conversation was about redistribution, that prefix of course demanding an additional contextual layer on which the word is applied. Trying to imply that in general redistribution should be ambiguous enough to be synonymous to concentration is firstly just muddying language to make conversation harder and second taking us further from the point of the conversation anyway. Since when is it in the interest of any discussion that "words mean things" becomes controversial?

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ~80% of current billionaires in the U.S. are self-made first generation. I see conflicting evidence to the claim[0,1,2] I'd argue that you also got to be really careful with these studies. Defining "self-made" is not a straight forward issue. In some sense, no person is self made as we're all products of our environments and the opportunities presented to us. If it were consistent you wouldn't see these numbers swi…

>> Defining "self-made" is not a straight forward issue Forbes has an interesting (to me at least) self-made score that assigns ten categories from "Inherited fortune but not working to increase it" to "Self-made who not only grew up poor but also overcame significant obstacles", https://www.forbes.com/sites/gigizamora/2023/10/03/the-2023-... .

Yeah this is the major issue and I think there's a big difference in how people internalize the notion of "self-made" vs how others actually utilize the terminology. Definitely part of this is due to human psyche where we (generally) place importance on our actions rather than our environment (which makes sense due to this is what we have (more) direct control over). There is also a significant number of people who have high incentives to weaken the definition and many do become true believers.

1/10 = Inherited fortune but not working to increase it

10/10 = Self-made who not only grew up poor but also overcame significant obstacles

Here's some clearer example of what may lead to confusion.

- Forbes gives Elon a self made score of 8/10. That's high, for this list considering what 10 means but 8 also is large with "middle-class or upper-middle-class background" (including Zuck and Bezos). Certainly Elon is significantly self-made (his family certainly weren't billionaires) but there is ambiguity about what class he grew up in. According to his dad[0], he paid for Elon's trip to Canada and his education (also discussing the sale of a private aircraft) while Elon claims he grew up poor and came to the Americas with only with $2.5k to his name and ended with $100k in student debt ($100k 1987 = $187k 2023). Certainly there is animosity between father and son and I'm willing to believe Elon believes he's telling the truth (not synonymous with being the truth). But Elon claims a 10/10 self-made score while the dad is saying something closer to a 7 (which is still quite privileged by the average person's standards: "got head start from wealthy family"). Elon's net worth is (Forbes) estimated $245bn and rank #1.

- Forbes equally ranks Bezos and the wiki page is kinda wild[1]. At birth his mom was a high school senior and father was a uni-cyclist but he also attended a Montessori school at age 2. At 4 his mom remarried and his step dad (Mark Bezos) worked for Exxon as an engineer. But Jeff also says Amazon was a family effort and it looks like his parents loaned him $245k ($480k 2023) and they're also billionaires now due to "early investment." I think it is safe to say most will consider Bezos much more self-made than Musk especially considering his dad (Mike) was a Cuban refuge refuge and still a student when his parents married. Without a doubt the average person would call Bezos self made and even believe he struggled and his success is highly conditioned on his work and ability to take advantage of ample opportunities at the time. Bezos's net worth is estimated $170bn and rank 3.

- Now one spot up (9/10) we have Sergei Brin[2] (link for history, you're on HN, you know who Sergei is...). Born in Soviet Russia to a math professor father and engineer mother. The wiki article discusses job loss, troubles getting out of Poland, and let's be honest, professors and NASA engineers are not the wealthiest of people, but neither are they poor (he also attended a Montessori School. I'm not shilling, I'm mentioning because private schools are expensive so puts some objective signal on family wealth). I think the average person would without a doubt not just think Sergei is self made but went through significant struggle, no matter where on the spectrum of "middle class" he grew up on (prof + engineer is reasonably upper middle). Sergei's estimated net worth is $110bn and rank 10.

- At 10/10 is George Soros[3], born in 1930 Budapest to (non-observing) Jewish parents I think we all know what happened. They didn't leave Hungry till post war (1947). There is mention that his family was themselves a bit antisemitic at the time and in 1944 were able to pose as Christians. No matter the personal beliefs I think it would be __difficult__ to claim that Soros is highly self-made and __without a doubt__ had struggles that few others can relate to in terms of severity (this history likely explains his passion for politics). Soros's net worth is estimated $6.7bn and ranked 396

Assuming all this is reasonably true, there's a crazy amount of difference between ranks 7 and 10. I honestly think most people would think a Forbes 7 is a 2 or 3 out of 10 and would interpret a 7 as vastly self made.

Edit: also kind crazy we live in a time where this can all be found and compiled in ~30 minutes. That's definitely a privileged environment, at least to my personal belief.

[0] https://www.the-sun.com/news/8014711/elon-musk-dad-errol-cha...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the bar for being successful is to inherit a pile of money that means you never have to worry about anything ever without losing it all, then boy is that a low bar. Plenty of people with a stupid amount of money lack skills and have bad habits. The difference is if you’re born poor you’re at a disadvantage from the jump. It is harder to climb out of poverty than to lose hundreds of millions of dollars of your inhe…

> Plenty of people with a stupid amount of money lack skills and have bad habits. The difference is if you’re born poor you’re at a disadvantage from the jump. the glaring error here is to bring up people's lack of skills and good habits, and to conclude that the main disadvantage of being poor is the lack of money. It's a bit of an assumption that abolishing the rich is going to lift people from poverty to the middl…

Are you kidding? How does someone go about obtaining skills? Education is expensive, even trade school. Not having to worry about living expenses or being one unforeseen major expense sinking you gives you huge leg up on obtaining skills.

Sure you can work from an entry-level job all the up to the top. How many people can do this? Meanwhile if your parents pay for you Ivy League education you walk your way in to a well-paying job.

Being poor is a disadvantage and to pretend like it isn’t is to literally deny reality. It impacts literally every aspect of your life in negative ways. Terrible food is cheaper. Healthcare is expensive. Meeting your basic needs as a human is an incredibly taxing process when you’re living paycheck to paycheck and trying to support yourself.

I’m not saying “Abolish the rich” even. But the kind of transfer of generational wealth we have now is a detriment to society.

We let the rich have and keep more of their money than ever before. The wealth gap isn’t a gap anymore, it’s an abyss that you couldn’t ever hope to see the bottom of.

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#317
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent some time googling how foundations work and while there are various structures, a common theme is that it's not that cushy. The bulk of the money has to actually go to charity, otherwise you pay the normal taxes. And they keep an eye out for tricks like having the foundation pay absurd salaries to your relatives.

The foundation doesn't have to be cushy in itself. The family members already inherit enough money to satisfy all of their material desires. You don't even need to be a billionaire to satisfy all of your material desires. Beyond a certain point, wealth is simply power, and the foundations give power to the families. What I see from the billionaires is a desire to undermine democratically elected governments, starving…

What is your evidence for this grand conspiracy theory?

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Defining "self-made" is not a straight forward issue Forbes has an interesting (to me at least) self-made score that assigns ten categories from "Inherited fortune but not working to increase it" to "Self-made who not only grew up poor but also overcame significant obstacles", https://www.forbes.com/sites/gigizamora/2023/10/03/the-2023-... .

Yeah this is the major issue and I think there's a big difference in how people internalize the notion of "self-made" vs how others actually utilize the terminology. Definitely part of this is due to human psyche where we (generally) place importance on our actions rather than our environment (which makes sense due to this is what we have (more) direct control over). There is also a significant number of people who h…

>> Assuming all this is reasonably true, there's a crazy amount of difference between ranks 7 and 10

For me the ranks are ordinal, not cardinal, so if they are represented as cardinal somewhere I wouldn't agree with that.

I assume that "I think it would be __difficult__ to claim that Soros is highly self-made" has a missing not somewhere?

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#319
post #314
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally nothing in the definitions you're linking to mentions anything about owners. And the definitions given at points just re-enforce the ambiguity. Definition 5 is "To apportion (more or less evenly)." I think one could reasonably read "more or less evenly" to mean "either more evenly or less evenly" or "relatively evenly". The definitions for "distribution" rather than "distribute" only weaken your narrow view…

That's a lot of contortion to attempt a defiance of etymology. And anyway the conversation was about redistribution, that prefix of course demanding an additional contextual layer on which the word is applied. Trying to imply that in general redistribution should be ambiguous enough to be synonymous to concentration is firstly just muddying language to make conversation harder and second taking us further from the po…

Words mean things. This word doesn't mean what you want it to mean, either according to the other people in the thread you're interacting with, or the source you decided to cite.

Etymology is not the sole determiner of meaning. We can call an area on the moon a "mare", and know this comes from the Latin for "sea", but "mare" in the context no longer means "sea".

Re: Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth creation, says UBS

#320
post #6

There are more secret billionaires, who don't appear on the billionaires list. I know of two such billionaires. One is super, super secretive, who passes off as a multi millionaire. There are special trusts that billionaires make use of. Treat a trust like a corporation, with its own independent existence. Such trusts can be set up for multiple generations: these trusts (corporations) are run by professionals, while…

Can you go into a little bit more depth about what life is like for these people? What do they do? How do they keep it so secret? Etc.

I’m fascinated you can have so much wealth and benefit from it in proportion to its scale without giving the game away

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