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Accidental database programming

sqlsync.dev

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Re: Accidental database programming

#111

Post by rococosbasilisk »

carlsverre wrote: post #68
m9t wrote: post #60

Offline/local-first based on SQLite seems hot right now. Third one I’m reading about this week. And it sounds good to me! But how does it compare to ElectricSQL[1] and PowerSync[2]? [1] https://electric-sql.com/ [2] https://powersync.com/

Indeed it's a very hot space! So exciting to see all the different approaches. ElectricSQL and PowerSync are both tackling the very hard problem of partial replication. The idea is to build a general solution which allows a traditional centralized db to bidirectionally sync only what's needed on the client side - while still supporting optimistic mutations (and all the consistency/conflict stuff that goes along with…

Phillip from PowerSync here, always good to see more people working on problems in this space.

A few things to clarify:

>one multi-tenant centralized db to bidirectionally sync

PowerSync supports syncing from multiple databases.

>The downside is complexity.

I'd say this is true if you're building a partial replication system yourself. PowerSync gives you a ready-built system that's been proven at scale and therefore lets you avoid most of that complexity.

>SQLSync, on the other hand, is full db sync.

It's just as easy to sync the full db with PowerSync as do partial sync.

Edit: formatting

Re: Accidental database programming

#112

Post by e_y_ »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #48
maclockard wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just delivery, but also security. Browsers offer a level of isolation and safety that you generally don't get with native desktop apps. Things like iOS do bridge the gap a bit more though

> Browsers offer a level of isolation and safety that you generally don't get with native desktop apps. They didn't originally: Java and ActiveX originally weren't sandboxed and had free run of the visitor's computer. All major OSes today now have built-in support for process/app sandboxing. I suppose if the "rich client" frontend model (WPF, etc) was more popular then I expect desktop OS application isolation to hav…

I can't speak for ActiveX since I avoided IE like the plague, but Java applets were sandboxed. Just that the sandbox had a lot of holes.

Re: Accidental database programming

#113

Post by ozim »

nusmella wrote: post #65

An old company I worked for used project management software with a check-in/out mechanism for making changes. When you "check out" a project it downloads a copy that you change locally, then "check in" uploads it back to the server. A project is "locked" while in the "checked out" state. We all felt it was an archaic mechanism in a word of live updating apps. After 10 years of building SPA "web apps", that data sync…

It solves so many problems and makes it so easy to implement if you go this way.

But just like mentioned it is hard to convince people that it is what they actually want.

People fall into some grand illusion that everything should be always available but in reality then one person is doing changes at a time and if somehow 2 or more people have to work on something - more often than not they should be talking or communicating with each other anyway to synchronize.

Even with GIT and fully distributed development you cannot solve conflicts automagically. You still have to communicate with others and understand context to pick correct changes.

Re: Accidental database programming

#114

Post by partomniscient »

ethbr1 wrote: post #88
RHSeeger wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like RCS [1]. I remember, back when a company I worked for switched from RCS to CVS, one of my coworkers was annoyed that CVS didn't support locking checkouts. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_Control_System [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System

And, of course, the default mode of Microsoft Team Foundation Server [0], decades after there were better patterns. So many forgotten locks from lazy devs... [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azure_DevOps_Server#TFVC

Now I feel old, I remember "Anything but sourcesafe" [0], which was a followup to "Visual Sourcesafe Version Control tunsafe at any speed", and having my trust evapourate when I found out Microsoft didn't dogfood their own version control system.

So long ago I can't remember exactly which but I was running a local cvs and/or subversion repository for my own work just to avoid issues like the above. s [0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/source-control-anything-but-so...

[1] https://developsense.com/visual-sourcesafe-version-control-u...

To get back on topic, the key thing an explicit database gives you is a purpose built-language (and data-integrity enforcement etc. if you do it properly), that everyone knows. (Or used to? SQL is getting more hidden by abstraction layers/eco-systems these days). I'm old, so I reach for my older, well understood tools over new and exciting. Get off my lawn. It may be over-architecting, but I'm also not working in maximising 'performance in milli/micro-seconds is vital' high load environments, or releasing updated software every other day.

The other issue is tool/eco-system fragmentation.

But when you're young and have the energy and mental capacity to abstract out the wahoo for effeciency/performance, you do, because you can, because its better at the time. In our day everyone was writing code to write to code which were effectively the pre-cursors to ORM's. It's just part of being young and committed to your craft, and wanting to get better at it - this is a good thing!

It's only as you get older you start to appreciate the "Less is More" around same time that job ads appear with "Must have 3 years of SQL-Sync experience" (no offence intended here). There are both costs and benefits but which and how much of each you only find out years later.

Re: Accidental database programming

#115

Post by gonzo41 »

vemv wrote: post #62

This seems to be one of those problems that entirely disappears by ditching SPAs. Using solutions from the Hotwire or htmx family would mean that a query is just a server query - making those fast is a better-understood problem.

These people will be blown away by server side rendering. Caches in front of API's and light weight front ends.

Re: Accidental database programming

#116

Post by carlsverre »

rococosbasilisk wrote: post #111
carlsverre wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it's a very hot space! So exciting to see all the different approaches. ElectricSQL and PowerSync are both tackling the very hard problem of partial replication. The idea is to build a general solution which allows a traditional centralized db to bidirectionally sync only what's needed on the client side - while still supporting optimistic mutations (and all the consistency/conflict stuff that goes along with…

Phillip from PowerSync here, always good to see more people working on problems in this space. A few things to clarify: > one multi-tenant centralized db to bidirectionally sync PowerSync supports syncing from multiple databases. > The downside is complexity. I'd say this is true if you're building a partial replication system yourself. PowerSync gives you a ready-built system that's been proven at scale and therefor…

Thanks for the clarifying points Phillip. I'm a big fan of PowerSync! Exciting to see you guys go after the partial replication problem.

I've adjusted my comment to be more clear and hopefully more fair. I didn't mean to mis-imply anything about your service.

Re: Accidental database programming

#117

Post by calvinmorrison »

ozim wrote: post #113
nusmella wrote: post #65

An old company I worked for used project management software with a check-in/out mechanism for making changes. When you "check out" a project it downloads a copy that you change locally, then "check in" uploads it back to the server. A project is "locked" while in the "checked out" state. We all felt it was an archaic mechanism in a word of live updating apps. After 10 years of building SPA "web apps", that data sync…

It solves so many problems and makes it so easy to implement if you go this way. But just like mentioned it is hard to convince people that it is what they actually want. People fall into some grand illusion that everything should be always available but in reality then one person is doing changes at a time and if somehow 2 or more people have to work on something - more often than not they should be talking or commu…

you can only have one person work on the code at a time? that seems, very very obviously dumb

Re: Accidental database programming

#118

Post by pphysch »

threatofrain wrote: post #85
vemv wrote: post #62

This seems to be one of those problems that entirely disappears by ditching SPAs. Using solutions from the Hotwire or htmx family would mean that a query is just a server query - making those fast is a better-understood problem.

This isn't a problem of only websites. Should mobile and desktop ecosystems start making a big move for thin-client like the browser? Should a simple app like Apple Reminders or Google Tasks have the GUI pause if there are delays or connection issues?

The authorization story in letting the client upload a new version of the application database (after a drop in connectivity) sounds like a total nightmare.

I just don't think there are "embarrassingly client-side, but also needs a server for some reason" web apps that would benefit from this in the real world. Even Google's or Apple's version of the simple Todo app has a lot of (useful) integrations, which means having some level of trust with the client.

Re: Accidental database programming

#119

Post by FridgeSeal »

reddalo wrote: post #69
vemv wrote: post #62

This seems to be one of those problems that entirely disappears by ditching SPAs. Using solutions from the Hotwire or htmx family would mean that a query is just a server query - making those fast is a better-understood problem.

But , if I can be honest, solutions such as Hotwire or Livewire are not as snappy as a SPA. I personally prefer InertiaJs [1], which is some kind of front-end router system with its state synced with the server in an "old style" fashion. [1] https://inertiajs.com

I don’t know what SPA’s you have the pleasure of using, but most SPA’s I’m subjected to are an exercise in molasses like interactions and loading spinners.

Re: Accidental database programming

#120

Post by JohnFen »

nemo44x wrote: post #107
ethbr1 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, of course, the default mode of Microsoft Team Foundation Server [0], decades after there were better patterns. So many forgotten locks from lazy devs... [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azure_DevOps_Server#TFVC

Back in the early days of TFS I was briefly at a company that went all in on MS tools. TFS was used and to avoid the lock each developer had a clone made and after checking their clone in the “TFS Guy” in the office would merge it. He also had to merge things when later checking had conflicting changes. Now, the best part of this shit show was they had ~30 different customers and each of these customers had a clone o…

I have to use TFS for a couple of projects where I work. I really wish we had a "TFS Guy"!
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