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Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#31

Post by LUmBULtERA »

Yhippa wrote: post #14

I was very close to buying an EV this summer but ended up not getting it. It felt like I could get an equivalent ICE car for about $20K cheaper. I did a lot of research about EV charging and the more I read the more I felt I didn't understand how it would practically work. I make a long trip every month or so and it sounds like the EV charging network isn't quite to where the point where it's as easy, quick, and cost…

If you qualify for the tax credit in the U.S., a standard Model 3 is just under $30k. You simply cannot buy a comparable new ICE car for $10k.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#32

Post by bombcar »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #28
rgmerk wrote: post #10

In much of the world you can buy a BYD Atto 3, which sits in precisely this sector of the market. But not in the USA.

This is interesting because it shows some complexity inherent to a government supporting a domestic industry. Naively it seems like the government would block imports of the small Chinese EVs so that domestic industry could compete BUT domestic automakers do not want the segment of a $5k tiny vehicle to exist at all, and will not 'compete' for that market! The margins and sales on such a thing would hurt the us auto…

You can solve the problem "easily" if there's political will for it.

You allow "golf cart" manufacturers to sell "golf carts" that are fully enclosed and meet some lower safety level because they're "limited" to 35 miles an hour, or classified as motorcycles, or whatever.

Then you "officially" prohibit them from freeways, but turn a blind eye to it, until it's so common, that you can relax the laws associated.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#33

Post by Abroszka »

bombcar wrote: post #21
Abroszka wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems fishy to me. How can a more complex device (ICE + EV) be more reliable than a pure ICE or EV? Also seems like a crap website, their chart show 79% more problems as red and then 26% fever as green.

Because modern ICE cars have freaking overgrown snowmobile transmissions, and a hybrid drivetrain can replace that entirely. A hybrid can be simpler than an ICE car (by eliminating the transmission and allowing the engine to be power-banded) and cheaper than an EV (because a 10x size battery is more than the cost of the engine and generator).

Still doesn't explain how the EV is less reliable. OK, it's more expensive due to the battery, but surely no ICE at all should make it more reliable.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#34

Post by Yhippa »

pmorici wrote: post #25
Yhippa wrote: post #14

I was very close to buying an EV this summer but ended up not getting it. It felt like I could get an equivalent ICE car for about $20K cheaper. I did a lot of research about EV charging and the more I read the more I felt I didn't understand how it would practically work. I make a long trip every month or so and it sounds like the EV charging network isn't quite to where the point where it's as easy, quick, and cost…

If you get a Tesla it is solved now. The charging is seamless and reliable pretty much everywhere except the very most out of the way places. All the rest though that can't yet use Tesla's charging network I would agree total trash if you want to do a long trip and need charging. This should change in ~2 years when manufactures start making more EVs that are compatible with NACS (aka Tesla's super charger network)

This is going to sound like a real dumb reason to avoid a Tesla but it disappoints me that they don't have Android Auto or Apple CarPlay. I tried them in rental cars over the past year and now that's a must-have in my next car.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#35

Post by bombcar »

losteric wrote: post #16
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Nah. People don't want small cars. Don't try to sell them yet another Bolt or Leaf they won't buy while the inventory languishes on some sad dealer lot until the model is discontinued due to anemic sales. Focus on revealed preference, not what consumers say they want. > Yes, it’s true that the Ford F-150 remained the most popular vehicle sold in America last year. No surprise. It has been for 40 years. In fact, the F…

Who's buying those F-150s and how amenable are they to EVs? It's not enough to just look at what's most popular if the underlying demographics are more resistant to EVs on an ideological basis.

I wasn't in the market for an F-150, but a minivan, and the EV minivan doesn't exist, the PHEV minivan is way higher priced than the regular one, and the hybrid minivan is nearly impossible to find.

So I have a boring standard one now.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#37

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

sumtechguy wrote: post #11
jabroni_salad wrote: post #5

Isn't the upsizing of vehicles because of consumer demand, though? They can sell crossovers and trucks into the consumer base at such volume and margin that it is worthwhile to simply stop making sedans. There are people like me who just want an electric honda fit but it seems like there aren't enough of us to be worth the effort.

That and the way the curves are made by the gov. Many small cars they just can not make because they would not fit the requirements set by the gov. So they classify them as trucks (different set of curves).

I think EVs would not have difficulty meeting those small car fuel economy standards, even though they are very strict.

But they may not feel safe on a road surrounded by Dodge Rams and Raptors.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#38

Post by mikestew »

Swizec wrote: post #13
jabroni_salad wrote: post #5

Isn't the upsizing of vehicles because of consumer demand, though? They can sell crossovers and trucks into the consumer base at such volume and margin that it is worthwhile to simply stop making sedans. There are people like me who just want an electric honda fit but it seems like there aren't enough of us to be worth the effort.

> an electric honda fit IoniQ 5 comes close. It's the first EV that made me go "omg I want that!". One of these days I'll take one for a test drive. Looks so cool, isn't super huge even though it's still big, and doesn't even try to look like a SUV. Although maybe I've been in USA too long and my perception is skewed because Wikipedia calls it a "compact crossover suv". Maybe battery size is a limiting factor here? T…

IoniQ 5 comes close.

We've got one. Great car, but it's no Honda Fit. As it had to fit in the same garage slot as the Nissan Leaf it replaced, I can confirm with my own eyes that it's only about six inches longer than the Leaf. But, man, a compact car it is not. I look at a Honda Fit as an even smaller version of the Scion xB we also have, and the Ioniq 5 dwarfs the Scion for interior passenger space. Additionally, judging how well a 3/4 acoustic bass fits, even has a bit more cargo space with the seats down. My six foot body could sleep with legs extended in the Ioniq 5 (I even bought a Backseat Bivy[0] for it), but the Scion is shy a few inches for that.

Re: "compact crossover SUV", well, they had to call it something, didn't they? But, no, it's not an SUV. "Station wagon" is close, but it's not one of those, either. It's really a four-door hatchback, but if you're thinking "hot hatch", well, not exactly that, either.

So who knows what to call it? But if one is looking for an electric version of a simple, small car, I don't know that the Ioniq 5 qualifies. Still, as Ferris Bueller said, if you have the means, I highly recommend one.

[0] https://backseatbivy.com

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#40

Post by droopyEyelids »

jabroni_salad wrote: post #5

Isn't the upsizing of vehicles because of consumer demand, though? They can sell crossovers and trucks into the consumer base at such volume and margin that it is worthwhile to simply stop making sedans. There are people like me who just want an electric honda fit but it seems like there aren't enough of us to be worth the effort.

The trick here is to understand that the small electric vehicles are an entirely new segment between a bicycle and a car.

There will still be consumer demand for large vehicles, and vehicles the size of a modern sedan or even compact car.

But consider electric bikes: they replace some trips in larger vehicles, and make classes previously too-inconvenient trips happen.

Tiny electric cars fit in above the electric bike use cases, where they enable carrying more cargo, protect the user from weather, can still be parked conveniently in a city, and really poor people can afford them.

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