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Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#11

Post by sumtechguy »

jabroni_salad wrote: post #5

Isn't the upsizing of vehicles because of consumer demand, though? They can sell crossovers and trucks into the consumer base at such volume and margin that it is worthwhile to simply stop making sedans. There are people like me who just want an electric honda fit but it seems like there aren't enough of us to be worth the effort.

That and the way the curves are made by the gov. Many small cars they just can not make because they would not fit the requirements set by the gov. So they classify them as trucks (different set of curves).

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#12

Post by Abroszka »

voisin wrote: post #8
Abroszka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hybrids doesn't make sense to me. If you need a car that runs on gas then make it a proper ICE car. Why put two engines into one? Seems super wasteful.

Electric for 95% of driving, gas to eliminate range anxiety for the few longer trips per year. Use the gas for charging the batteries - no connection between gas engine and electric drivetrain.

But then just rent an ICE car when you go for a long drive... better for the environment.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#13

Post by Swizec »

jabroni_salad wrote: post #5

Isn't the upsizing of vehicles because of consumer demand, though? They can sell crossovers and trucks into the consumer base at such volume and margin that it is worthwhile to simply stop making sedans. There are people like me who just want an electric honda fit but it seems like there aren't enough of us to be worth the effort.

> an electric honda fit

IoniQ 5 comes close. It's the first EV that made me go "omg I want that!".

One of these days I'll take one for a test drive. Looks so cool, isn't super huge even though it's still big, and doesn't even try to look like a SUV. Although maybe I've been in USA too long and my perception is skewed because Wikipedia calls it a "compact crossover suv".

Maybe battery size is a limiting factor here? The electric mustang looks like an SUV, but has a lower ground clearance (5.1in) than the sports car internal combustion version (5.3in)

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#14

Post by Yhippa »

I was very close to buying an EV this summer but ended up not getting it. It felt like I could get an equivalent ICE car for about $20K cheaper.

I did a lot of research about EV charging and the more I read the more I felt I didn't understand how it would practically work. I make a long trip every month or so and it sounds like the EV charging network isn't quite to where the point where it's as easy, quick, and cost efficient as filling up gas in an ICE car.

I think I'm going to wait for another 8-10 years for the kinks and range to be worked out. PHEV or Hybrid for me until then.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#15

Post by ClarityJones »

Abroszka wrote: post #4
newsclues wrote: post #2

Hybrids will spur adoption faster and cheaper than anything

Hybrids doesn't make sense to me. If you need a car that runs on gas then make it a proper ICE car. Why put two engines into one? Seems super wasteful.

A Model 3's battery is 82kWh, a Camry Hybrid's battery is 1.6kWH.

In terms of battery, you could produce (82 / 1.6 = 51.25) hybrids per fully electric car.

The total fuel savings of replacing 10+ ICE cars with hybrids is an order of magnitude larger than replacing 1 ICE car with a fully electric car.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#16

Post by losteric »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Nah. People don't want small cars. Don't try to sell them yet another Bolt or Leaf they won't buy while the inventory languishes on some sad dealer lot until the model is discontinued due to anemic sales. Focus on revealed preference, not what consumers say they want. > Yes, it’s true that the Ford F-150 remained the most popular vehicle sold in America last year. No surprise. It has been for 40 years. In fact, the F…

Who's buying those F-150s and how amenable are they to EVs? It's not enough to just look at what's most popular if the underlying demographics are more resistant to EVs on an ideological basis.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#17

Post by toomuchtodo »

losteric wrote: post #16
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Nah. People don't want small cars. Don't try to sell them yet another Bolt or Leaf they won't buy while the inventory languishes on some sad dealer lot until the model is discontinued due to anemic sales. Focus on revealed preference, not what consumers say they want. > Yes, it’s true that the Ford F-150 remained the most popular vehicle sold in America last year. No surprise. It has been for 40 years. In fact, the F…

Who's buying those F-150s and how amenable are they to EVs? It's not enough to just look at what's most popular if the underlying demographics are more resistant to EVs on an ideological basis.

Great questions. Insights below on the emotional component of consumers in question:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-siz...

https://coltura.org/gasoline-superusers-2-report/

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/25/electric-vehicles-politics

https://www.axios.com/2023/09/27/state-politics-electric-veh...

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231108-three-big-reas...

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#18

Post by bryanlarsen »

nwvg_7257 wrote: post #6
Abroszka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hybrids doesn't make sense to me. If you need a car that runs on gas then make it a proper ICE car. Why put two engines into one? Seems super wasteful.

Consumer report says hybrids are more reliable than ICE and EVs https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s... "Overall, hybrids have 26 percent fewer problems than cars powered by internal combustion engines (ICE)."

PHEV's are significantly less reliable, though. HEV's and PHEV's should have a similar level of reliability. The difference is that HEV's are mostly Toyotas and PHEV's mostly aren't.

My impression is that non-Toyota hybrids are significantly less reliable than gasoline cars, but the article doesn't give enough data to tell for sure.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#19

Post by oldnetguy »

Abroszka wrote: post #12
voisin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric for 95% of driving, gas to eliminate range anxiety for the few longer trips per year. Use the gas for charging the batteries - no connection between gas engine and electric drivetrain.

But then just rent an ICE car when you go for a long drive... better for the environment.

That makes no financial sense. I bought a car because rentals over time exceeded the ownership of owning. Since many trips are outside the EV range.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#20

Post by Abroszka »

ClarityJones wrote: post #15
Abroszka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hybrids doesn't make sense to me. If you need a car that runs on gas then make it a proper ICE car. Why put two engines into one? Seems super wasteful.

A Model 3's battery is 82kWh, a Camry Hybrid's battery is 1.6kWH. In terms of battery, you could produce (82 / 1.6 = 51.25) hybrids per fully electric car. The total fuel savings of replacing 10+ ICE cars with hybrids is an order of magnitude larger than replacing 1 ICE car with a fully electric car.

For each of those 51 hybrids you need to manufacture an extra ICE engine. Which is not cheap. It's more complex to make a drive train that can seamlessly handle switching from EV to ICE. So it's more difficult to manufacture. Has there been a study that takes the whole lifecycle of a hybrid into account vs an EV or ICE?

Would be super interested if there had been a research that also takes into account that we don't need SUVs that seems to be the go to car in the US.

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