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HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

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Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#101

Post by rchaud »

city41 wrote: post #46
fifilura wrote: post #41

Using tables for layout is pretty understandable. But when tables went out of fashion it was all about using floats for layout for a few years. That was wild, I am surprised it was left out from that list. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/CSS/CSS_layou... "Originally for floating images inside blocks of text, the float property became one of the most commonly used tools for creating multiple column layo…

The era between tables and flexbox/grid was a difficult one. Floats were finicky and hard to get right. A lot of people just went back to tables, and I honestly didn't blame them.

The era between tables and flexbox/grid were the glory years of Bootstrap and Foundation CSS frameworks.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#102

Post by dylan604 »

cantSpellSober wrote: post #77
fifilura wrote: post #41

Using tables for layout is pretty understandable. But when tables went out of fashion it was all about using floats for layout for a few years. That was wild, I am surprised it was left out from that list. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/CSS/CSS_layou... "Originally for floating images inside blocks of text, the float property became one of the most commonly used tools for creating multiple column layo…

> it was all about using floats for layout for a few years Called these "faux columns" and a basic 3-column layout was so difficult it was referred to as the "holy grail" of layouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_grail_(web_design)#Faux_c...

don't forget that the holy grail was to have a locked in header and footer with the middle section as scrollable 3 columns

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#103

Post by mpixel »

rchaud wrote: post #100
reddalo wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

W3Schools is a horrible resource. I'd like Google to hide all of their results.

A lot of people on HN seem to have this opinion. A lot of the content on that site has been re-written, and it's now a pretty fantastic resource for beginners. If you tell 2 beginners to build something with PHP/jQuery/JS, and send one person to W3Schools and the other to PHP.net/jquery.org/MDN, I have no doubt that the W3schools person will get something done in workable state faster.

And if you tell 2 experts to build something with W3Schools as the resource against better documentation, I'm sure the results will be the opposite.

That's not the point though, I'm not going to say different strokes for different folks.

Instead I'd say, if that beginner uses the 'slower' path instead, that will pay dividends in time -- they are better of learning to use the docs than getting paid peanuts for delivering that project which depends on the juniors faster.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#104

Post by rand_flip_bit »

reddalo wrote: post #96
stabbles wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As W3Schools still likes to call it: the new, modern clearfix hack [1] .clearfix::after { content: ""; clear: both; display: table; } [1] https://www.w3schools.com/howto/howto_css_clearfix.asp

W3Schools is a horrible resource. I'd like Google to hide all of their results.

Amongst many other sites, I have w3schools blocked in my Kagi search results, along with MDN being raised/prioritized.

From the looks of it, it seems like blocking w3schools is quite popular among Kagi users [1].

[1]: https://kagi.com/stats

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#105

Post by dylan604 »

_fat_santa wrote: post #97
fifilura wrote: post #41

Using tables for layout is pretty understandable. But when tables went out of fashion it was all about using floats for layout for a few years. That was wild, I am surprised it was left out from that list. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/CSS/CSS_layou... "Originally for floating images inside blocks of text, the float property became one of the most commonly used tools for creating multiple column layo…

I had to develop some email templates a while back for the first time and was almost shocked that they still use the "tables method" for layouts. Overall I'd say developing email templates now is much like developing websites in the early 2000's, email clients have such a wider range of CSS support that there are hacks all around. We now have frameworks like MJML and Foundation that do their best to abstract all that…

But if you wrote an email template app based on tables, why would you change it if it's not broken? Why would you go through the hassle and expense of redeveloping your app just to not use tables? No sane person looks at the HTML of an email. Only poor souls that get a request on how to send email spam in-house might ever consider it, or just the perversely curious. Either way, nobody cares what it looks like under the hood as long as it looks good when viewed in the client.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#106

Post by dylan604 »

cantSpellSober wrote: post #81
CM30 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of floats being used for layout, you could probably add the clearfix hack to this list too. That was an essential part of my CSS toolbox for years, and something that ended up being one of the first things added in every new project. https://css-tricks.com/snippets/css/clear-fix/

The linked article includes an example of the "commented backslash hack," a variation on point #3 in this article Fell out of use because "nobody uses IE for Mac" :)

IE for Mac was so atrocious, there's a chapter dedicated to it in iWoz.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#108

Post by subtra3t »

mpixel wrote: post #103
rchaud wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people on HN seem to have this opinion. A lot of the content on that site has been re-written, and it's now a pretty fantastic resource for beginners. If you tell 2 beginners to build something with PHP/jQuery/JS, and send one person to W3Schools and the other to PHP.net/jquery.org/MDN, I have no doubt that the W3schools person will get something done in workable state faster.

And if you tell 2 experts to build something with W3Schools as the resource against better documentation, I'm sure the results will be the opposite. That's not the point though, I'm not going to say different strokes for different folks. Instead I'd say, if that beginner uses the 'slower' path instead, that will pay dividends in time -- they are better of learning to use the docs than getting paid peanuts for deliver…

I disagree with you. "Learning" to use a particular documentation website (which, mindyou, changes its layout frequently) is not very time consuming.

So a beginner should use w3schools while they see fit, and then move on to MDN, etc. when they find it to be unsuitable for their purposes.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#109

Post by notbeuller »

I will often slap a dumb 3 line http server into my long running tools / applications for debugging - provide ReSTful channel to toggle debug flags. I “learned” html in the 90s and don’t use it otherwise, so figures prominently in generating the structure of the page.

Re: HTML hacks that shaped the Internet

#110

Post by seanwilson »

This is why "HTML/CSS/JS isn't supposed to be used like that" is a weak argument. Browser features we take for granted now grew from developers popularising hacks that pushed the boundaries (usually in ways people complained about at the time) until official support was gradually built into the browser e.g. AJAX, responsive layouts, complex/flex/grid layouts, reactivity with proxies, JavaScript modules, desktop-like web UIs in general.

TypeScript, JSX, Tailwind and bundlers come to mind of current trends that get some strong negative reactions but could become more mainstream later.

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