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From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

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Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#81

Post by ricardobeat »

silverlake wrote: post #57
ricardobeat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what my last sentence is about. The extraction of surplus-value comes from having an economical/power/knowledge advantage: in my pretty ideal world the workers should have enough of those skills, or the ability to subcontract them. If everyone was well educated and had the means to set up a business they wouldn't need someone else to seize the opportunity for them. The whole startup spirit is that of g…

This is way too idealistic for any adult to believe. Coops didn't even work in China[1]. In Brooklyn, NY there's a food coop [2](grocery store) run by people in the neighborhood. I believe the group has naturally separated in a minority of pushy organizers (i.e. managers) and the majority who put in their hours and go home. Coops could work if it didn't involve human beings. [1] http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01…

There are plenty of decades-old working cooperatives here. It's the standard business form for farmers in the countryside. It's just another business arrangement, nothing extraordinary. They get everyone's production and leverage their volume to get better deals than any individual producer could, then pay everyone a fair rate.

Upon reading the articles: that NY coop seems fairly successful, but the closest to that model around here is a just-opened Sam's Club :) You seem to have misunderstood the article on China: what made them successful and more productive was precisely working as a collective while being fairly compensated. Cooperatives have nothing to do with communism.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#82

Post by DanielBMarkham »

tptacek wrote: post #77
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I only read the initial post. Yeah, you can't get into how to do the work. Also using anything called employee turnover is a dead stop. But I still think it's salvageable, simply because there are so many independent cleaners out there already. This industry is heavily independent. I think he really needs to look at his structure, pronto. I'll play devil's advocate just a bit more for the crowd. Many times st…

This is not the good kind of subversive. This is the kind of subversive that screws people who are making close to subsistence wages over on taxes. He spends "an hour a day" on Maids In Black now and based on his pricing and the prevailing take-home for housekeepers is taking more than half the gross from the business. That doesn't seem particularly laudable (but maybe my math is fucked up). I don't think it's going…

I'm unable to address this, as I'm not sure what you mean. I was simply saying that from his vantage point, hooking up customers and vendors who were already in the market can be a valid business model.

I believe you are talking about bringing new people into the market as vendors and then treating them poorly. Hopefully we can agree that folks that are already doing cleaning can continue doing it just using this guy's services to find customers. If not,if the point is that all cleaners should be w-2 employees, then yes, no matter what he does it will not satisfy somebody with that view. I do not believe all cleaners should be employees. It's perfectly fine with me if you feel otherwise, but I don't think that's the way the IRS sees things. (thankfully)

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#83

Post by ricardobeat »

courtewing wrote: post #69
ricardobeat wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, and I don't mean to put down his effort (as I said below, there is some value added). But they are just being exploited by a smaller company - it's the same. edit: what is with downvotes lately? This is not a contest, feel free to join the discussion.

This is a sentiment that I see frequently on HN, and I'm not exactly sure why. I was a "questionably" contracted employee for awhile, and I never once felt exploited by the company, and I'm confident that they never felt that they were exploiting me. Sure, being contractors might not be ideal for them at the moment, but they are the first 8 employees at the company. There are additional benefits to being in that situ…

I think you fell on the wrong comment tree. The "exploitation" in discussion has nothing to do with the employment laws discussed above.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#84

Post by [deleted] »

redfalcon6 wrote: post #78
ricardobeat wrote: post #7

It's a nice personal achievement, but I can't help myself cringing at business models of this kind. It's plain old extraction of surplus-value, adding very little to the economy as a whole. The workers would be better off operating as a cooperative, I wish they had the education to know that from the outset, and the means to implement it.

I think this shows a confusion about what part of the problem he is solving: He is solving a MARKETING problem not a DELIVERY problem. Yes the cleaners are probably not doing anything differently than they normally did. BUT: -the cleaners had problems finding clients -clients had trouble finding good cleaners If you've ever tried to find one of these folks, it's a total PIA. Basically it involves asking your friends…

[deleted]

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#85

Post by courtewing »

ricardobeat wrote: post #83
courtewing wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a sentiment that I see frequently on HN, and I'm not exactly sure why. I was a "questionably" contracted employee for awhile, and I never once felt exploited by the company, and I'm confident that they never felt that they were exploiting me. Sure, being contractors might not be ideal for them at the moment, but they are the first 8 employees at the company. There are additional benefits to being in that situ…

I think you fell on the wrong comment tree. The "exploitation" in discussion has nothing to do with the employment laws discussed above.

After re-reading your comment and the one to which it replied, I see that you are correct. My reply was not in the wrong tree but rather based on an incorrect assumption.

Pardon my ignorance, but what "exploitation" is being discussed here?

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#86

Post by courtewing »

rsynnott wrote: post #66
courtewing wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting and surprising to me. I wonder how, for example, Comcast manages this. Comcast has a huge independent contractor network that they use to subsidize their full-time on-site tech support. All of those contractors wear Comcast shirts, have Comcast written on their trucks, must meet customers at the times that Comcast schedules, and do receive at least a portion of their supplies from Comcast.

Are you sure that they individual support people are self-employed? If they merely work for a contractor company, that would be okay (assuming they're employees of the contractor). Otherwise, it sounds odd.

I am not sure, but that would make sense.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#87

Post by tptacek »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #82
tptacek wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the good kind of subversive. This is the kind of subversive that screws people who are making close to subsistence wages over on taxes. He spends "an hour a day" on Maids In Black now and based on his pricing and the prevailing take-home for housekeepers is taking more than half the gross from the business. That doesn't seem particularly laudable (but maybe my math is fucked up). I don't think it's going…

I'm unable to address this, as I'm not sure what you mean. I was simply saying that from his vantage point, hooking up customers and vendors who were already in the market can be a valid business model. I believe you are talking about bringing new people into the market as vendors and then treating them poorly. Hopefully we can agree that folks that are already doing cleaning can continue doing it just using this guy…

Someone is paying FICA taxes.

If the maids are 1099 employees, they're paying both halves of it. That's "self-employment tax". It's very expensive; around twice what employees pay.

The prevailing rate right now for "qualified" housekeepers in the DC metro area is $9.80/hr. Even if he's "generously" giving them $20/hr (if a 1bdr apartment takes 2 people 1 hour to clean, then according to his price list that means he's keeping about 60% of the gross), he's still shifting around $8000/yr to these workers just in FICA.

I'm taking exception to the idea of cheering on as "getting-stuff-done subversive" the business model that says "here, let me take a chunk of your taxes and stick it in my own pocket".

Again: I don't think "all maids should be employees".

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#88

Post by ricardobeat »

mgkimsal wrote: post #60
ricardobeat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what my last sentence is about. The extraction of surplus-value comes from having an economical/power/knowledge advantage: in my pretty ideal world the workers should have enough of those skills, or the ability to subcontract them. If everyone was well educated and had the means to set up a business they wouldn't need someone else to seize the opportunity for them. The whole startup spirit is that of g…

"in my pretty ideal world the workers should have enough of those skills, or the ability to subcontract them." They are subcontracting those skills out to the person who is marketing and getting them the jobs.

At a very high cost (100% over their pay).

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#89

Post by ricardobeat »

cynicalkane wrote: post #55
ricardobeat wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's how you get Marxism Is it a disease? :) Did you mean communism? > Information, quality assurance, and good management are all scarce I acknowledge that. Read my comment below - these skills are picked up on the go by startup founders, the same way those in a cooperative could. Professionalism is unrelated to having one head or twenty at the top. > For instance, most programmers are content to work for the Ma…

>> Information, quality assurance, and good management are all scarce >I acknowledge that. Read my comment below Well, your surplus-value is everyone else's value-added. There are probably more efficient ways to do things in the information age. I'd like to see a smart bunch of hackers disrupt the maid service industry. But I don't think the current method is unjustifiable and I don't think it's correct to question s…

You might have missed the last line in that comment. I'll repeat: I'm not questioning the validity of the business (that would be me against the world), it's just wishful thinking.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#90

Post by ricardobeat »

viandante wrote: post #75
ricardobeat wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read comment below for my take on that. I'm not blaming anyone or saying it's morally wrong, just exploring a different arrangement.

What's the problem then? Having management? 'Stealing' profit from the workers? You can't seem to understand that 1000 workers doing 'their' job may be hundrends of times less productive than doing the same job under the same company. Lots of things (machinery, know how, etc.) need a company and a capital. Finally, I also don't understand discussing capitalism. Here we are discussing freedom for individuals to work a…

Problem? None. I think you need to re-read the thread with a lighter head.
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