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I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

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Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#281

Post by vasco »

ochronus wrote: post #188
vasco wrote: post #63

If in a PIP you can actually improve the thing in question, then the PIP is useless and your manager failed to communicate it to you properly. In all other cases a PIP is not passable. Nobody becomes a significantly better engineer in 2 months if they haven't in their career so far, with the only new factor in the 2 months being "now you have extra pressure and a clock ticking".

I disagree, having been on both sides of PIPs. Not all PIP reasons are about not being a certain level of engineer. Sometimes it's about behaviors or the lack of them. In some cases, the forcing function of a strict timeline with high stakes attached is what people need. Usually not, but sometimes yes. Anyway, it's a tool that's to be used as a last resort, 99% of performance cases should have a much lighter solution…

If you told them clearly about the behaviors and you need to start a PIP, I assume you took a few weeks to tell them and waited at least a few more weeks until you started the PIP, and if the behavior kept going for all this time, again, I can't see how the PIP will help anything other than being "this is what we do before we fire someone".

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#282

Post by cornholio »

anyoneamous wrote: post #147
ballenf wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it sounds like he won? He got his $200k and found a new job before any PIP was implemented? Why would his manager have been upset if they were actually trying to force him out? Surely HR knows how long it takes to exit someone and if they wanted to keep the $200k they would have started the process earlier?

The manager wasn't the one doing the forcing - the overall stack-ranking system was, and the manager was just employing the required level of doublethink to convince themselves the employee was both suitable for firing and also worth trying to retain.

I disagree, this is not some junior manager drinking the company cool aid. They are a middle manager with hundreds of indirect reports - in HR, no less - fully aware of what they're doing and with a metric to hit.

So they lined up potential candidates, made them the same deal and tested their level of docility and loyalty to himself. Some of the candidates demurred and they got the boot, the author played the loyalty game and then "backstabbed" his superior and screwed the stats.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#284

Post by pc86 »

> If you walked away during the Pivot or anytime before you had your investment before it was there for you, you would lose it all. And I'm not talking a little bit of money. I'm talking: I had a couple hundred thousand dollars coming to me.

What exactly are people in HR doing to warrant getting over $200k in stock grants? Even spread over an entire vesting schedule (and it's not, it's just the final vest) that's ludicrous for the work they do.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#285

Post by throitallaway »

pc86 wrote: post #284

> If you walked away during the Pivot or anytime before you had your investment before it was there for you, you would lose it all. And I'm not talking a little bit of money. I'm talking: I had a couple hundred thousand dollars coming to me. What exactly are people in HR doing to warrant getting over $200k in stock grants? Even spread over an entire vesting schedule (and it's not, it's just the final vest) that's lud…

Laying off lots of people isn't fun?

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#286

Post by pavel_lishin »

giantg2 wrote: post #235
steveBK123 wrote: post #204

One underlying problem with these PIP type programs at FAANG seems to be that they have very high barriers to entry in the interview process, and then act like 30% of the company is underperforming and subject to an annual 6% cull. There are industries & companies that have grown fat & lazy and could use a few annual 6% culls, but you eventually run out of fat. If you have a very competitive interview process and hig…

One thing about fat that I think is overlooked is how fat today might be muscle tomorrow, and how little companies try to convert it. Maybe a person is in a bad role, on a bad team, or simply doesn't have experience or skills fitting the specific requirements of that single point in time. I've been a high performer in the past. Now I'm a low performer (I'm slow) after the company has changed the way it treats teams/w…

What's an ASC?

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#287

Post by throitallaway »

vasco wrote: post #281
ochronus wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, having been on both sides of PIPs. Not all PIP reasons are about not being a certain level of engineer. Sometimes it's about behaviors or the lack of them. In some cases, the forcing function of a strict timeline with high stakes attached is what people need. Usually not, but sometimes yes. Anyway, it's a tool that's to be used as a last resort, 99% of performance cases should have a much lighter solution…

If you told them clearly about the behaviors and you need to start a PIP, I assume you took a few weeks to tell them and waited at least a few more weeks until you started the PIP, and if the behavior kept going for all this time, again, I can't see how the PIP will help anything other than being "this is what we do before we fire someone".

Yes, in most cases PIPs are an ass covering and serve as a form of documentation.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#288

Post by scarface_74 »

no_wizard wrote: post #248
giantg2 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing about fat that I think is overlooked is how fat today might be muscle tomorrow, and how little companies try to convert it. Maybe a person is in a bad role, on a bad team, or simply doesn't have experience or skills fitting the specific requirements of that single point in time. I've been a high performer in the past. Now I'm a low performer (I'm slow) after the company has changed the way it treats teams/w…

You should file for disability accommodations. That is completely legal to ask. Sometimes you need to back it up with documentation, but i suspect that won't be a problem. They can't discriminate against you for this.

The way that Amazon’s PIP works, you are highly incentivized not to fight it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37963423

The risk/reward isn’t worth it unless you’re close to a vesting period.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#289

Post by soco »

VoidWhisperer wrote: post #56

This has probably already been said, but places that mandate that X% of people need to be put on performance improvement plans are not great. This can force managers (or HR, depends on who decides the PIP) to put otherwise good engineers or staff on PIP when they are perfectly fine employees - they may not be 10x, perfect, and can just be doing what they need to do to do their jobs, but they still aren't doing anythi…

In some countries it's even illegal. But since when did this stop (US) management from trying it.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#290

Post by cmorgan31 »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #87
capableweb wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the person interviewed is lying then, you claim? Inflating the number? > I got to the point where they offered me a job, and I was going to quit. But I had a huge stock investment coming up. So there was no way I was going to rock the boat in any way, shape, or form just trying to get to this date. > If you walked away during the Pivot or anytime before you had your investment before it was there for you, you woul…

No, she isn't necessarily lying but just making it seem as if she would have received $200K over a single vest while it would have likely happened over at least 2 years and 4 vests. I have £110K coming up if I look on the stock portal, but it's over the next two years, so 25K at a time, and I don't consider it as money I already have.

They had direct reports in HR so you might be on the mark in terms of ladder just more in the HR camp with OP as a senior manager where they combined their bonus and vest payouts? You'd just have to be a bit above Staff to hit 200k with bonus and a single vest.
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