So its okay doing the evil thing for a while to several professionals, but when it was OPs turn, then its a no-go?
I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
151–160 of 618 posts
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
How Amazon's behavior here, clearly mandated as official corporate policy, is not an instant class action lawsuit demonstrates how far we are in our "late stage capitalism" and economic slaves, not free, not by half.
In earlier times, they'd just fire you without any kind of PIP process. Are you saying that PIP vs. immediate firing is worse?
If the PIP is intended to get the employee to quit, then yes, I think the PIP is worse.
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#153I've never seen a PIP actually work in practice.
No? I've seen it work countless of times, employees either getting fired and the PIP is cited as the reason why, or the PIP process is so toiling on the employee that they quit by themselves.
Seems to work exactly for the purpose it was created, to force out employees one way or another.
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not that complicated. In no countries do companies want to spend staff time and effort and risk lability by giving tailored feedback to people they won't hire anyway. In short, it's not worth it for them, it's that simple. Sometimes they do, but that's very rare nowadays. I think companies were more willing in the past, but all it takes is one angry rejected candidate with a chip on his shoulder and a lawyer on…
> In no countries do companies want to spend staff time and effort and risk lability by giving tailored feedback to people they won't hire anyway. Actually, it's not that hard. Provided you have had a discussion with your team on why not to hire the candate, it's easy to send them a short summary without revealing too much information. I should clarify, I don't mean this for every candidate. Just for those who have g…
>Actually, it's not that hard.
You underestimate how lazy some companies are when it comes to non-billable hours/tasks. The question on their end is "why bother, what's in it for us?".
>Provided you have had a discussion with your team on why not to hire the candidate, it's easy to send them a short summary without revealing too much information.
That's the problem, it's NOT easy to send feedback that's truthful yet at the same time is 100% iron clad against any potential expressions that might be interpreted as discriminatory. Engineers are not good at formulating such things and their bluntness is a liability.
Which is why engineers are left with the technical part, and the final candidate-feedback communication and rejection is left to the HR who's main job is eliminating employee/candidate liability for the company, so they usually take the route that makes their job easier and send the same generic message to everyone, especially that in many companies HR is understaffed.
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is random but I was recently rejected for a role from a company I find very interesting - https://www.overstory.com/ - and when I asked, the engineering manager gave me clear, detailed feedback on why (I don't have experience with satellite imagery tools like STAC, I accessed dict members with x['a'] instead of x.get('a', {}), and I didn't go in to depth on my takehome assignment.). I really appreciate it and me…
Depending on your perception, x.get is either error recovery (good) or a silent failure (bad). One is not necessarily better than the other; it depends on what you want. In my experience, x[] is usually the better choice because failing fast makes debugging easier. I hope no one is recommending x.get as a general practice, because that is pretty naive.
I've been around a while and I'm mentoring a junior dev, and one of the things that has come up is to fail as fast and as hard as possible. A silent failure is one of the worst things to have. And this is why I usually won't use .get on data that has presumably already been validated.
But I was already rejected so I haven't been able to explain my logic :-). It's still nice to get their feedback, though.
Funny enough, in Europe, you _should_ be able to get any written notes on you via GDPR.
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#156Many years ago, when I worked in high finance, it was common knowledge that 3-5% of the staff would be fired every 1-2 years, all at once. This created a lot of tension every time rumours swirled that the "culling" was coming up. But, when you were fired, you were simply given a phone call, out of the blue one day, told to come to an office, and then offered a severance package based on your years of service, and escorted out of the building. At the end of one of those days, everyone not called breathed a sigh of relief. (And some who were not called, but didn't really want to stay either, secretly wished they were called.)
As cold-hearted as this practice is, it seems downright humane vs putting 3-5% of staff on a PIP or "Pivot" or whatever, and forcing managers and staff to play a weird charade (akin to psychological torture) that this has something to do with individual performance rather than systematic payroll cost control at the corporate finance level.
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#157So its okay doing the evil thing for a while to several professionals, but when it was OPs turn, then its a no-go?
I never thought the face-eating leopard would eat MY face !!
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is random but I was recently rejected for a role from a company I find very interesting - https://www.overstory.com/ - and when I asked, the engineering manager gave me clear, detailed feedback on why (I don't have experience with satellite imagery tools like STAC, I accessed dict members with x['a'] instead of x.get('a', {}), and I didn't go in to depth on my takehome assignment.). I really appreciate it and me…
:x['a'] instead of x.get('a', {}) This seems like splitting hairs. Sure, maybe x.get is better, but would that be a deal breaker? Know you are just giving quick example, but this just struck a cord. Are jobs really so hard to get that employers can be that nit-picky?
If I've learned anything it's that a lot of the hiring process is extremely arbitrary. If someone asks "why do you want to work here?" and you say "money" you might get someone admiring your honesty or you might get someone who wants you to have a personal affinity for the company. And it can be hard to know which.
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
Money is a powerful motivator
Amazon pays less than local outsourcing companies in Eastern Europe. Faang salary my arse.
Faang salary only exists on the US. Even the richest countries in Europe don't have those salaries for programmers (maybe if you work on finance or some niche subject).
Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Austrian resident here, checking in. I have yet to see this heinous practice in the Austrian job market, but I guess ymmv. Every single time [*] I've asked for feedback on the interview process, I've gotten it - including details for why I was not considered for a position. Perhaps you just need to ask. [* - except Qualcomm, I just remembered...]
Oh, I have asked, and only got ghosted. Even by Austria's biggest telecom company in Vienna too ;) 90% of the time the feedback is "sorry, we can't move forward because we have better candidates in the pipeline" and asking for details leaves you ghosted. You probably live in a different Austria. Or maybe because I'm a foreigner with dark skin :)
Well, I live in Vienna and have never had an issue with getting good feedback on why I didn't pass an interview - except from Qualcomm, who responded "we have no comment on the interview process, we just didn't feel it was a good fit", which actually just made me feel relieved to have not passed their criteria.
Never been ghosted, either. So I dunno, our subjective experiences differ. I'm also a foreigner, but maybe our experience levels are just different.
What I have found is that Austrian companies will interview you even if they don't intend to hire anyone for the position, and that can be frustrating at times.