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I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

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Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#141

Post by cool_dude85 »

trgdr wrote: post #114
capableweb wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you instead move laterally and look at other "modern" countries, instead of temporally, it's easy to see how the working class and more is getting exploited in the US.

Ehh if you look at other "modern" countries you see workers being paid half as much. Not to say that the US is any sort of paradise, but there are definitely tradeoffs that favor either direction.

This is true in one very specific industry, computer programming. Maybe being a doctor too but HN doesn't cater so much to that crowd. In others, wages are pretty comparable.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#142

Post by stevage »

I don't really understand how someone can work in HR at a place like Amazon for so long and then claim to be surprised that Amazon is actually very evil.

Or that we are somehow supposed to feel sympathetic for someone who has profited to the tune of many hundreds of thousands of dollars perpetuating this soul-crushing machine. No.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#143

Post by andsoitis »

aestetix wrote: post #74
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that complicated. In no countries do companies want to spend staff time and effort and risk lability by giving tailored feedback to people they won't hire anyway. In short, it's not worth it for them, it's that simple. Sometimes they do, but that's very rare nowadays. I think companies were more willing in the past, but all it takes is one angry rejected candidate with a chip on his shoulder and a lawyer on…

> In no countries do companies want to spend staff time and effort and risk lability by giving tailored feedback to people they won't hire anyway. Actually, it's not that hard. Provided you have had a discussion with your team on why not to hire the candate, it's easy to send them a short summary without revealing too much information. I should clarify, I don't mean this for every candidate. Just for those who have g…

There is still the calculus of why bother?

There are legitimate reasons (you want rejected candidates to still have a good impression of the company, you think the feedback could help them improve and want them to interview again in the future, you want to include them in your professional network, etc.) but I think it is best if that is an intentional choice.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#144

Post by orwin »

aestetix wrote: post #52
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is absolutely not the same in Europe. It is my experience across 4 EU countries and 30+ interviews. If it doesn't match your own experience there's nothing I can do about it. >In Germany, you are expected to give honest (and sometimes brutal) feedback, but always with a way to improve in mind. You are expected by ... law? In which case it's a legal requirement and not an expectation. Or expected by ... candidates…

I chose the example I have experience with. I don't have experience with other EU countries, so I can't comment on those. I also don't have experience with massive large companies, so maybe this is a problem of scale rather than culture. Although it does seem like smaller American companies have the same problems.

I don't know, Valve (proton team) gave me the most complete feedback I ever received.

Frankly I was not a big steam fan, but now I'm close to defend Gabe like Tesla fans defend Musk.

Really great people, if someone from that team read this: kudos.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#145

Post by danaris »

ballenf wrote: post #119
bsenftner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How Amazon's behavior here, clearly mandated as official corporate policy, is not an instant class action lawsuit demonstrates how far we are in our "late stage capitalism" and economic slaves, not free, not by half.

In earlier times, they'd just fire you without any kind of PIP process. Are you saying that PIP vs. immediate firing is worse?

In some ways, yes.

Firing you immediately for bullshit reasons is something you can potentially take to court, and also make a solid case for unemployment payments due to unfair termination.

If they put you on a PIP, and then claim that you're failing to meet it, even if they're lying through their teeth, that makes it much harder to prove that their actions were unfair or illegal. Suddenly it's no longer a "person said, faceless company said;" it's "person said, faceless company had months of documented (if falsified) evidence to back up their position". Unless you are savvy enough to start documenting everything, which is a) hard to know you need to do, b) hard to know how to do effectively, and c) kind of exhausting even if you can get it right.

To a large extent, the PIP process is there to cover Amazon's ass and make sure that your firing sticks.

And all that is if you don't just get frustrated and fed up with being constantly told you're failing to meet expectations that either you are, in fact, meeting, or no actual human could ever meet.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#146

Post by hiAndrewQuinn »

intunderflow wrote: post #58

I've heard so many terrible stories about working at Amazon that I'm not sure I would ever work there, both in the media and from friends who were severely mistreated. It's a shame, because some of the tech they work on (like S3) is super interesting and high scale, but I do not want to acquire a mental health crisis from work.

That's the draw for me. Now that I've adequately licked my wounds from a life where I just never quite had the stability I needed (and got that stability too ofc), I now really want to work for Amazon just to see how hard I can push myself. I've told my wife the current plan is, once she has her degree finished, I'm going to crowbar my way into one of their software engineering departments by any means necessary.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#147

Post by anyoneamous »

ballenf wrote: post #116
kudokatz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if this is the case, it doesn't feel like they tried very hard? I don't think you get it. The way this stuff is done is just as described - totally blindsiding, and potentially flat-out gaslighting. There's no actual metrics or data until they fabricate a paper trail and force you out. You don't win these things. Rather, you take your money and go elsewhere. Then turn down the subsequent job offers you get from the…

But it sounds like he won? He got his $200k and found a new job before any PIP was implemented? Why would his manager have been upset if they were actually trying to force him out? Surely HR knows how long it takes to exit someone and if they wanted to keep the $200k they would have started the process earlier?

The manager wasn't the one doing the forcing - the overall stack-ranking system was, and the manager was just employing the required level of doublethink to convince themselves the employee was both suitable for firing and also worth trying to retain.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#148

Post by danaris »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #141
trgdr wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehh if you look at other "modern" countries you see workers being paid half as much. Not to say that the US is any sort of paradise, but there are definitely tradeoffs that favor either direction.

This is true in one very specific industry, computer programming. Maybe being a doctor too but HN doesn't cater so much to that crowd. In others, wages are pretty comparable.

It's not even true in programming, unless your comparison point is not "the US tech sector", but specifically "Silicon Valley".

Out here in the rest of the US, tech salaries are still somewhat higher, broadly speaking, than other professions, but they're much lower than they are in SV and related west-coast areas.

And when you're talking about tech worker salaries outside the tech sector, the effect is even stronger.

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