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Henry Kissinger Has Died

nytimes.com

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Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#381

Post by fmajid »

unethical_ban wrote: post #311
reducesuffering wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assume he was smarter than the people without clearance Idk, it's actually wild how HN is almost entirely "Kissinger is a war criminal" meme-ing with little actual specific policy substance behind it. Meanwhile, if you read any Kissinger, you'd realize he understood history and the international relations better than 99% of these comments. Truly, word-for-word basis you will undoubtedly learn far more about history…

Should a country overthrow the democratically elected government of another country because of non-life-threatening business losses? (Chile) Should a country delay a peace process with an enemy nation for several years for the sake of optics over peace? (Vietnam) Should a world leader meant to promote peace and de-escalation of armed conflict intentionally snub and antagonize their chief political rival with nukes, f…

He also tried to intimidate India from intervening militarily in Bangladesh to stop the Pakistani Army’s genocide there, in collaboration with the British and the Chinese. Fortunately he failed, in no small part due to the Soviets, who were the good guys in this instance.

https://jacobin.com/2023/11/kissinger-in-bangladesh

https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/when-russia-stunned-us...

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#382

Post by estebank »

imgabe wrote: post #329
shadowgovt wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, which is to say, it is possible the rational view here is the man who facilitated the rise of the Khmer Rouge by testing an entire country as collateral damage is, well, a bastard.

Maybe. Maybe the alternatives available at the time were believed to result in something 10x worse than the Khmer Rouge. Would he still be a bastard then? Or someone who had to make a hard choice among terrible options? I don't know, for the record. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't sound like a reasoned consideration of the evidence taking into account the historical context. It sounds like someone who thought "…

He supported and enabled dictatorships in Latin America. Do tell us how that was defensible. This is very much part of public record, thanks to diplomatic cables declassified in 2016.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#384

Post by __loam »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #78
jandrese wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The level at which Henry Kissinger micromanaged the bombing of innocent civilians can not be overlooked. Even by fairly stringent definitions he is a war criminal.

> level at which Henry Kissinger micromanaged the bombing of innocent civilians can not be overlooked Sure. But legally irrelevant. He didn’t command them. The person receiving the order could—and in many cases, should—have refused. That’s different if e.g. Nixon ordered it directly, because in that case it’s a military command. Again, these terms had meaning. But they’re practically unenforceable even in public opin…

I think I hate this website.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#385

Post by karmakurtisaani »

animal_spirits wrote: post #368
aniforprez wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but not every person needs "counter programming". Kissinger was a war criminal and we don't need a "balanced take" of a monster

Nuanced and unbiased conversation is much needed in this world, and having multiple viewpoints from people with different biases helps us all.

So what's the unbiased take going to be? "Yeah he caused a lot of damage and suffering, but sometimes he also progressed our (the US) interests without hurting anyone"?

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#386

Post by AYBABTME »

kelnos wrote: post #309
AYBABTME wrote: post #284

I have a feeling that people who hate him were on the receiving end of his work, or associate him as one of those bogeyman characters that their in-group is expected to hate, or whom it's popular and fashionable to hate. He seems to have been quite good at what he did, and this made his opponents hate him particularly vehemently. If you bother to read what he wrote, he had a pretty humble but accurate view of things…

It isn't only his opponents who hated him, it's the countless families and friends of the innocent bystanders who got caught in Kissinger's crossfire.

The victims "were on the receiving end of his work", like I said. The man served the US and the US first and wasn't shy about sacrificing left and right for his perceived greater good. In the trolley problem, he was clear eyed. You may disagree with his trolley problem solution, but then would you have one, or would you stall and do nothing in the face of this problem?

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#387

Post by rmk »

jhbadger wrote: post #282
Metacelsus wrote: post #133

From the obituary in the New York Times: "Michael T. Kaufman, a former correspondent and editor for The Times who died in 2010, contributed reporting." So, Kissinger outlived the guy who wrote his obituary!

That's very common. Basically all elderly people of note have obituaries written by reporters on staff so that an article can be gotten out quickly if the subject dies suddenly. Not uncommonly, the targets of the obituary are of a higher class and have better medical treatment and so live beyond their obituary writer.

Just curious. Was Kissinger a smoker? And was he an Ashkenazi Jew? Because he'd have risk factors from smoking, and would also be likely to have some known genetic predisposition to certain illnesses.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#388

Post by AYBABTME »

standardUser wrote: post #375
animal_spirits wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuanced and unbiased conversation is much needed in this world, and having multiple viewpoints from people with different biases helps us all.

Rhetoric can be used to craft any message, no matter how absurd. Eloquent defenses exist for all of the most heinous actions by men. We have to assess the viewpoint before we grant it legitimacy, not absorb it simply because it exists.

"We have to decide if we're going to have our prior beliefs and preferences reinforced before we grant it access to our ears and eyes."

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#389

Post by [deleted] »

AYBABTME wrote: post #388
standardUser wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rhetoric can be used to craft any message, no matter how absurd. Eloquent defenses exist for all of the most heinous actions by men. We have to assess the viewpoint before we grant it legitimacy, not absorb it simply because it exists.

"We have to decide if we're going to have our prior beliefs and preferences reinforced before we grant it access to our ears and eyes."

[deleted]

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#390

Post by mrweasel »

dannylandau wrote: post #224

Many people have a positive view of Kissinger -- https://www.wsj.com/articles/henry-kissingers-century-01a1a9...

I think it's a generational thing. Kissinger should have stopped commenting on world affairs 20 decades ago. It became increasingly oblivious that the world was evolving in a direction he didn't understand or comprehend. He continued to attempt to apply his cold war era world view and solutions to current issues, when it was obvious to most that his ideas where nonsense.

An example: His idea that Ukraine should give up territory to please Russia made it clear that he don't understand modern Russia or Putin. It's not a conflict in which he has no relevant experience or any deep insight, yet he felt the need to use his influence to present his poorly thought out idea.

Had he stepped back from the public 20 years ago, then may the majority of at least Americans would have remembered him as a great statesman, but he need to be heard and saying stupid shit has made people more aware of his past and his terrible actions.

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