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Henry Kissinger Has Died

nytimes.com

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Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#311

Post by unethical_ban »

reducesuffering wrote: post #195
protocolture wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres a semi apocryphal story that one of Kissingers friends warned him before he started working under clearance, that once he had access to "Intelligence" that other people didn't have, he would lose his humanity to the spooks, and assume he was smarter than the people without clearance. Which seems to be sort of what happened.

> assume he was smarter than the people without clearance Idk, it's actually wild how HN is almost entirely "Kissinger is a war criminal" meme-ing with little actual specific policy substance behind it. Meanwhile, if you read any Kissinger, you'd realize he understood history and the international relations better than 99% of these comments. Truly, word-for-word basis you will undoubtedly learn far more about history…

Should a country overthrow the democratically elected government of another country because of non-life-threatening business losses? (Chile)

Should a country delay a peace process with an enemy nation for several years for the sake of optics over peace? (Vietnam)

Should a world leader meant to promote peace and de-escalation of armed conflict intentionally snub and antagonize their chief political rival with nukes, for the sake of optics? (USSR regarding wars in the mideast)

From my brief reading in the past few hours, it seems he decided a number of US policy positions that not only killed a large number of humans, but did so by expressly ignoring the stated principles of liberalism, self-determination and human decency and honor.

So I guess if people were to fully support him and his actions, I would at least ask them to be consistent and say "I do not believe in a rules-based world order and I do not believe the US has any obligation to advance human rights worldwide".

There are times the US has done things that were horrific, but were deemed absolutely essential to saving more lives than they cost - such as the bombing of Japan. Kissinger's difference is that none of the moves he endorsed seem to have been necessary to the survival of the "West" or the US, but it cost more lives than the bombings.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#312

Post by imgabe »

shadowgovt wrote: post #297
imgabe wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The podcast, no. But if a comment is going to offer a link with the conceit of “consume this to fully understand who this person was” it would be good if the source were not something with the explicitly stated thesis of “hey, this guy’s a bastard”. I mean, you don’t even need to listen to it to know what the conclusion is going to be.

On some topics there is no such thing as a rational centrist view.

There is always a rational view, whether it falls as centrist on the political ideology spectrum of the times is immaterial.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#313

Post by nerdponx »

chirau wrote: post #132

As a person from the third world and more specifically Africa, I cannot find myself to mourn his death or say any good thing about Kissinger. Good riddance actually. I would have loved to see him get his day in court when he was still alive. What he masterminded in Angola and several other African countries that ended up in civil wars because of him are some of the greatest atrocities to people of the third world. I…

It might be some small consolation that I know a lot of Americans who are celebrating his death, rather than mourning it.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#314

Post by n9 »

imgabe wrote: post #196
breput wrote: post #6

Do yourself a favor and listen to at least one of the six part series that Behind The Bastards podcast[0] did on Kissinger. It will give you a background, with sources, on the "controversial" statesman that you'll read eulogies about over the next few days. [0] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-one-kissinger [1] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-two-kissinger [2] https://omny.fm/shows/behind…

Reading through the descriptions of the episodes of this podcast it seems a lot like they start with a conclusion and then confirmation bias themselves (and everyone else who already agrees with them). Maybe not the most objective source.

You might listen to the podcasts. They are good and they are well researched. Listen: I met Kissinger a few times and spent a few decades of my life working with foriegn policy wonks. He was a monster beyond compare.

And I'll just add this in. When I was 24 I got a job at the New York Times working on the tech team that would launch nytimes.com. The "web editor" was one Bernard Gwertzman. Look him up. He was the foreign desk editor of the paper of record for decades. He made his name reporting on the Vietnam war. Would you like to know who his best friend was in 1996 when I met him? Henry Kissinger. He had lunch with him every wednesday at the Harvard Club. Having read Manufacturing Consent more than once I was flabbergasted. If Chomsky had known this... Anyway, he and I were the first ones to show up for a meeting one time and I asked him how he and Henry K had met. He leaned over and said (with a literal wink) "while I was reporting on Vietnam, but don't tell anyone!"... said the man who among many other things 1. reported that we were not bombing Cambodia, 2. Supported Pinochet and 3. didn't report on the East Timor genocide. All policies that were 100% Kissinger.

Rest in piss. Both of them.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#316

Post by vkou »

CSMastermind wrote: post #262
Frummy wrote: post #93

He wrote a fair amount of books for the interested

I found Diplomacy by him to be surprisingly good. I came into it with a negative perception of him presumably from being around threads like this one and found a cogent framework to think about foreign relations well articulated.

I've read that book

It's well articulated, in the same sense that lebensraum can be well-articulated. If you don't believe in the rule of law, but do believe in might makes right, it's entirely coherent.

It also puts you on a similar moral ground, and value to civilized society that being, say, a mob boss, or some other violent, dangerous psychopath does.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#317

Post by shadowgovt »

imgabe wrote: post #312
shadowgovt wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On some topics there is no such thing as a rational centrist view.

There is always a rational view, whether it falls as centrist on the political ideology spectrum of the times is immaterial.

Indeed, which is to say, it is possible the rational view here is the man who facilitated the rise of the Khmer Rouge by testing an entire country as collateral damage is, well, a bastard.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#318

Post by ivanb »

On a practical side of things, how did he manage to make it to 100? Did he maintain a nutrition plan, was he physically active?

Fun fact: Henry Kissinger was elected an international member of Russian Academy of Sciences in 2016.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#319

Post by mmpdev »

LispSporks22 wrote: post #289
breput wrote: post #6

Do yourself a favor and listen to at least one of the six part series that Behind The Bastards podcast[0] did on Kissinger. It will give you a background, with sources, on the "controversial" statesman that you'll read eulogies about over the next few days. [0] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-one-kissinger [1] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-two-kissinger [2] https://omny.fm/shows/behind…

Also check out The Trial of Henry Kissinger by Christopher Hitchens. I think it was made into a documentary later. The man was worthy of the title of war criminal, but of course we don't prosecute our own and we certainly don't recommend to the ICC (we're the good guys, you see). It will be interested to see what obituaries settle on this week though.

Not only would we not recommend our war criminals to the ICC, we have on the books the authorization to be able to invade the Hague in case any US person was being held or tried. Hague Invasion Act / ASPA is wild.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#320

Post by whatshisface »

jhbadger wrote: post #282
Metacelsus wrote: post #133

From the obituary in the New York Times: "Michael T. Kaufman, a former correspondent and editor for The Times who died in 2010, contributed reporting." So, Kissinger outlived the guy who wrote his obituary!

That's very common. Basically all elderly people of note have obituaries written by reporters on staff so that an article can be gotten out quickly if the subject dies suddenly. Not uncommonly, the targets of the obituary are of a higher class and have better medical treatment and so live beyond their obituary writer.

That last sentence is a massive step beyond common knowledge, if it's true... and I don't think it is, what can doctors do?
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