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Henry Kissinger Has Died

nytimes.com

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Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#161

Post by hammock »

Pxtl wrote: post #99
breput wrote: post #6

Do yourself a favor and listen to at least one of the six part series that Behind The Bastards podcast[0] did on Kissinger. It will give you a background, with sources, on the "controversial" statesman that you'll read eulogies about over the next few days. [0] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-one-kissinger [1] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-two-kissinger [2] https://omny.fm/shows/behind…

I've already listened and it's excellent. Tl;dr version: Kissinger was an almost superhuman ass-kisser. He had an incredible knack for playing along with whatever insane idea somebody had and made everybody in the room feel goddamned brilliant. The richest, most powerful, and most beautiful people in the world just loved being around him because he consistently sounded interesting and made them feel intelligent. And…

>He had an incredible knack for playing along with whatever insane idea somebody had and made everybody in the room feel goddamned brilliant. The richest, most powerful, and most beautiful people in the world just loved being around him because he consistently sounded interesting and made them feel intelligent.

You call that ass-kissing, others may call it diplomacy. He may have furthered his own interests but did he also further the interests of the US more effectively than most could?

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#162

Post by jofer »

hammock wrote: post #140
breput wrote: post #6

Do yourself a favor and listen to at least one of the six part series that Behind The Bastards podcast[0] did on Kissinger. It will give you a background, with sources, on the "controversial" statesman that you'll read eulogies about over the next few days. [0] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-one-kissinger [1] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-two-kissinger [2] https://omny.fm/shows/behind…

[flagged]

The crazy thing about this is that the folks calling Kissinger out for war crimes and the folks like you pointing out the good things he enabled both have a valid point.

I'm not saying his legacy is positive or negative overall, but folks need to look at both sides of it. He's a great example of someone who had a major hand in a lot of major decisions and has a very very mixed legacy because of it.

Things are much blurrier than we make them out to be these days. Anyone who has a major impact often has significant positive and negative impacts. Kissinger was not a one sided character.

And with that said, I can't believe I just defended Henry Kissinger, but it's still worth saying...

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#163

Post by nopassrecover »

NaOH wrote: post #43

Probably as good a time as any to re-link the Mother Jones piece "Daniel Ellsberg on the Limits of Knowledge": https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsbe... Linked on HN numerous times but largely only discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3296691

Great link!

I wonder whether we look at this with new eyes in light of the recent discussions in Congress around UAP.

I think it illuminates the profound insight of Ellsberg’s commentary if, even for the sake of argument, you entertain the idea of non-human life being amongst that information and then, as he describes, imagine sitting and being briefed on any number of topics from any number of perspectives knowing that you know there to be non-human life, that they don’t, and that if they did they would see the world very differently as you have come to.

Of course I think Ellsberg’s perspective holds regardless of what that significant unknown information is (so long as it is significant) - true might of adversaries, how close we’ve come to various failure scenarios, what tech we’ve actually developed, who shot Kennedy etc.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#164

Post by torstenvl »

mattnewton wrote: post #148
hammock wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Not saying I agree with the charge but this also doesn’t refute it. I mean, for one thing the US believes the state department and military of the US is above international war crimes courts. (Thats the actual official position).

"International war crimes courts" do not prosecute treason.

And it isn't about the personnel being "above" anything. It's simply that the ICC is not a court and does not respect due process, so we do not subject American citizens to it (and indeed it would be an interesting Constitutional question as to whether that's even truly possible).

From a more pragmatic perspective, as long as Russia and China don't recognize the ICC's authority, it would be a major global strategic blunder to impose checks and balances only on the United States.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#165

Post by lern_too_spel »

mattnewton wrote: post #148
hammock wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Not saying I agree with the charge but this also doesn’t refute it. I mean, for one thing the US believes the state department and military of the US is above international war crimes courts. (Thats the actual official position).

Is there any country that is more powerful than the counterparty that will submit to the decision of an international court?

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#166

Post by shimonabi »

hammock wrote: post #140
breput wrote: post #6

Do yourself a favor and listen to at least one of the six part series that Behind The Bastards podcast[0] did on Kissinger. It will give you a background, with sources, on the "controversial" statesman that you'll read eulogies about over the next few days. [0] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-one-kissinger [1] https://omny.fm/shows/behind-the-bastards/part-two-kissinger [2] https://omny.fm/shows/behind…

[flagged]

> If he was a "war criminal" as many here claim, why wasn't he ever prosecuted or convicted?

Kissinger himself said many times that relations between states aren't based on morality, so people who act in the name of states can't be bound by international laws. It's an idea that is the basis of the realist philosophy. A lot of people in the the foreign policy establishment share that view.

The USA for example supports the International criminal court, but not for its citizens, so Kissinger can never be prosecuted like Milošević. Those who say the ICC is just an instrument of power are not entirely wrong.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#167

Post by dumpsterlid »

hammock wrote: post #161
Pxtl wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've already listened and it's excellent. Tl;dr version: Kissinger was an almost superhuman ass-kisser. He had an incredible knack for playing along with whatever insane idea somebody had and made everybody in the room feel goddamned brilliant. The richest, most powerful, and most beautiful people in the world just loved being around him because he consistently sounded interesting and made them feel intelligent. And…

>He had an incredible knack for playing along with whatever insane idea somebody had and made everybody in the room feel goddamned brilliant. The richest, most powerful, and most beautiful people in the world just loved being around him because he consistently sounded interesting and made them feel intelligent. You call that ass-kissing, others may call it diplomacy. He may have furthered his own interests but did he…

“ He may have furthered his own interests but did he also further the interests of the US more effectively than most could?”

Hahahahaha nope, he literally was just a leech on society that got into high enough positions that his vapid bullshitting didn’t just fool his bosses into paying him a good wage but directly contributed to the deaths of countless innocent humans… for absolutely zero good reason from any perspective other than kissingers. Seriously this isn’t serial killer level stuff, this is war criminal mass murderer levels off violence and he never ever faced any real consequences for it.

I am not religious but Kissinger makes me want to believe in hell just so I can fall asleep with the comforting thought that Kissinger is burning in hell forever. He deserves nothing less, rest in piss, Kissinger.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#170

Post by plorkyeran »

arp242 wrote: post #5

I'm surprised at the extreme brevity of this obituary; were they taken by surprise someone could die of old age as young as 100 and didn't have anything prepared? I would have expected at least an brief summary of his career, highlights, major points of controversy, etc. e.g. like this: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/29/henry-kissin... (and undoubtedly many others). Also, this ruins my "Jimmy Carter v.…

If you talk about the good things he did one group of people will get very mad, and if you talk about the bad things he did another group of people will get very mad. Much easier to just say nothing.
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