From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months • Hacker News Board

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#21

Post by toyg » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:07 AM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #7

It's a nice personal achievement, but I can't help myself cringing at business models of this kind. It's plain old extraction of surplus-value, adding very little to the economy as a whole. The workers would be better off operating as a cooperative, I wish they had the education to know that from the outset, and the means to implement it.

He's not playing golf all day: he did design and commission the scheduling system he now operates, and provides ongoing advertisement and management.

From what he says, it looks like he gets $40 to $60 per job, whereas cleaners get $15 to $30 per job -- they work in team, so it's $30 to $60 in total (it's all pre-tax, from what I understand). Not a terrible arrangement, to be honest, especially in the Land Of The Free From Socialism; apparently this is much more than what they used to make when a big company exploited them.

I do agree however that the IRS will kick the shit out of him if he doesn't switch to proper employment asap, and that's how it should be: it's all fun and games when things go well, but when hard times come (and they will come) the workers should get some protection.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#22

Post by rmc » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:10 AM UTC

dangrossman wrote: post #14

ricardobeat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the US, but over here if you have to follow orders, work under constant supervision or on the clock, you can't be classified as a contractor anymore (in theory).

I understand that, but the maids are not working under constant supervision or on the clock.

A detailed checklist that the cleaners have to meet sounds like supervision to me.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#23

Post by toyg » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:14 AM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #19

dangrossman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read every comment he's made yet, but skimmed many of them... Why can't they be contractors? He said they're providing their own transportation and supplies. So he's just handing them clients and appointments, and a checklist of cleaning tasks to complete and a few limitations on the supplies used. Isn't that analogous to handing a contracted software developer a requirements document and a deadline?

It's possible if he does everything right. But the presumption by determining authorities seems to be in the 'employee' direction, so it's very easy to slip up. Does he tell them when to work? Employee. How to do their work (a checklist)? Employee. Provide supplies? Employee. Do they wear a 'Maid In Black' uniform? Employee. If he were a matching service, it might be easier. But, he's extending his brand/guarantee/mo…

> the presumption by determining authorities seems to be in the 'employee' direction

Note that this is not done on a whim: these laws and interpretations were introduced because employers were systematically exploiting workers, hiring them as contractors just to work around their established rights.

And it works both ways, really: having a clearer set of rules reduces the risk for costly litigation when something happens.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#24

Post by ricardobeat » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:16 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #21

ricardobeat wrote: post #7

It's a nice personal achievement, but I can't help myself cringing at business models of this kind. It's plain old extraction of surplus-value, adding very little to the economy as a whole. The workers would be better off operating as a cooperative, I wish they had the education to know that from the outset, and the means to implement it.

He's not playing golf all day: he did design and commission the scheduling system he now operates, and provides ongoing advertisement and management. From what he says, it looks like he gets $40 to $60 per job, whereas cleaners get $15 to $30 per job -- they work in team, so it's $30 to $60 in total (it's all pre-tax, from what I understand). Not a terrible arrangement, to be honest, especially in the Land Of The Fre…

I know, and I don't mean to put down his effort (as I said below, there is some value added). But they are just being exploited by a smaller company - it's the same.

edit: what is with downvotes lately? This is not a contest, feel free to join the discussion.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#25

Post by robryan » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:24 AM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #7

It's a nice personal achievement, but I can't help myself cringing at business models of this kind. It's plain old extraction of surplus-value, adding very little to the economy as a whole. The workers would be better off operating as a cooperative, I wish they had the education to know that from the outset, and the means to implement it.

The workers may not be any good at marketing or any of the organization and running a business stuff, they are probably happy just to stick to the cleaning and get a constant stream of jobs given to them.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#26

Post by ricardobeat » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:29 AM UTC

robryan wrote: post #25

ricardobeat wrote: post #7

It's a nice personal achievement, but I can't help myself cringing at business models of this kind. It's plain old extraction of surplus-value, adding very little to the economy as a whole. The workers would be better off operating as a cooperative, I wish they had the education to know that from the outset, and the means to implement it.

The workers may not be any good at marketing or any of the organization and running a business stuff, they are probably happy just to stick to the cleaning and get a constant stream of jobs given to them.

That's exactly what my last sentence is about. The extraction of surplus-value comes from having an economical/power/knowledge advantage: in my pretty ideal world the workers should have enough of those skills, or the ability to subcontract them.

If everyone was well educated and had the means to set up a business they wouldn't need someone else to seize the opportunity for them. The whole startup spirit is that of getting down to build a business, learning as you go, and I think the same applies to cooperatives. It's joining forces with your peers.

And this is just how most startups are born: two or more co-founders with a fair split, employees get equity etc. Why is this different?

I'm happy working a job right now too, just dreaming.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#27

Post by nmridul » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:29 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #18

dangrossman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read every comment he's made yet, but skimmed many of them... Why can't they be contractors? He said they're providing their own transportation and supplies. So he's just handing them clients and appointments, and a checklist of cleaning tasks to complete and a few limitations on the supplies used. Isn't that analogous to handing a contracted software developer a requirements document and a deadline?

You'd have to squint an awful lot for the evaluation to fall out that way. I'm a contracted software dev. I'm going to run down a list of questions from the IRS. Mentally score which ones sound like a cleaning laborer. I have business cards, a personal website, and a professional reputation. My clients ask for me by name. I do not submit applications. I do not respond to advertisements of employment. I often have dis…

How does Mc Donalds and others run their franchisee and get away with these ? Franchisees do not have their own websites (its run by mcd). They have uniforms, clear checklists for employees of franchisees and most of the other points that is mentioned here.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#28

Post by qznc » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:31 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #18

dangrossman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read every comment he's made yet, but skimmed many of them... Why can't they be contractors? He said they're providing their own transportation and supplies. So he's just handing them clients and appointments, and a checklist of cleaning tasks to complete and a few limitations on the supplies used. Isn't that analogous to handing a contracted software developer a requirements document and a deadline?

You'd have to squint an awful lot for the evaluation to fall out that way. I'm a contracted software dev. I'm going to run down a list of questions from the IRS. Mentally score which ones sound like a cleaning laborer. I have business cards, a personal website, and a professional reputation. My clients ask for me by name. I do not submit applications. I do not respond to advertisements of employment. I often have dis…

I'd say the distuingishing factor is that you have multiple clients. A maid, who is only working for one "agency", looks fishy.

At least, that is the main argument here in Germany.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#29

Post by mikk0j » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:38 AM UTC

nmridul wrote: post #27

patio11 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to squint an awful lot for the evaluation to fall out that way. I'm a contracted software dev. I'm going to run down a list of questions from the IRS. Mentally score which ones sound like a cleaning laborer. I have business cards, a personal website, and a professional reputation. My clients ask for me by name. I do not submit applications. I do not respond to advertisements of employment. I often have dis…

How does Mc Donalds and others run their franchisee and get away with these ? Franchisees do not have their own websites (its run by mcd). They have uniforms, clear checklists for employees of franchisees and most of the other points that is mentioned here.

Because the law for individuals and companies is different. In this case, the franchised companies are companies in their own right, and they have employees. Franchised companies usually (?) have a licensing contract with the mothership, not an ownership arrangement. MCD does not 'contract' the franchise employees - that would be trouble. In the redditor's case, that's exactly what he does, down to giving them uniforms.

Re: From idea to replacing full-time salary in 4 months

#30

Post by akg » Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 9:54 AM UTC

An excellent example of a valuable product that was bootstrapped from the very beginning. It's really a shame that news like this is not more prevalent. We are so accustomed to seeing media highlights of highly glamorized "overnight successes" that we forget that there are plenty of other founders out there who are starting businesses and going through the same struggles and accomplishments.

More importantly, stories like this make it seem that success is within reach and not something achieved only by an elite few with well connected VCs in some well-known startup hub.