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Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

arstechnica.com

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Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#91

Faking speakers is pretty shitty but at the same time, it is disheartening to acknowledge that in 2023, there are still people who care about the gender or race of speakers.

I don't like explaining this, because it should be obvious, but pretending this to be obvious would be hypocrisy.

Yes, in an ideal world, you wouldn't care. But we are incredibly far away from that ideal, and we must put special care into our actions to keep us moving towards that state. Acting as if there was no problem is ignorance, it enables the privileged to perpetuate the status quo.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#92
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying women don't think they'll get a slot at a user group that is begging for anyone to talk up a slot and are quite clear about the urgency of it? I feel like that's sexist somehow, like women fundamentally aren't able to realise user groups would take anyone that comes. This overall feels like trying to pretend like there isn't an extreme shortage when basic stats paint a clear picture. No, I'm saying t…

> Same niche, same city. Got to assume the organisers for one are dodgy then. Just curious, what cities have multiple user groups for the same niche? > Generalisations work just fine too, but we both know you're using generalisations to avoid defending the case referenced in the article that you know is indefensible. You're not fooling anyone. Case in point: Bad faith comment. I am not defending the case referenced,…

> Got to assume the organisers for one are dodgy then.

Or they have, like you, assumed there's little they can do, and have kept making the same excuses you made, and women have seen the lack of representation when they've attended, and not felt encouraged to stick their necks out. I happen to know the organisers of the one that regularly had women speaking, and 1) they included a woman in the steering group, 2) they explicitly never relied just on cfp's but made sure to reach out to people (both men and women) and made sure to also specifically set topics that addressed the representation of women in tech and similar that made it very clear to everyone it was an inclusive environment. This isn't rocket science, and when it is applied it works.

> Just curious, what cities have multiple user groups for the same niche?

Plenty of larger cities. I'm in London. Lots of niches here with multiple groups, and some with many (e.g. for the latter, there are at least a dozen tech entrepreneurship meetup groups in London with various activity levels, and the groups I were talking about were groups focusing on early stage tech entrepreneurs).

> Bad faith comment. I am not defending the case referenced, it does appear indefensible. I don't understand why you think I wouldn't want to admit that. I don't care, I was making a generalised statement in regards to women speakers at conferences and how organisers appear to have serious trouble recruiting them. To which you responded with a generalised response about skipping over applicant pools. Then suddenly it became specific to this case.

The choice of making a general comment to threads on a specific issue and then insisting it doesn't apply to the specific thread you've made it on is a well-established way of making low commitment statements that implies something without needing to stand by it when challenged. When it is then coupled with this kind of reaction against trivially simple ways of addressing the "concerns" you've raised, it becomes very transparent.

> Bad faith comment. As pointed out if you want to improve diversity then you must increase diversity in your applicant pool not skip over your applicant pool as you suggest.

I haven't suggested skipping over any applicant pool. I'm assuming you're referring to this:

> If you fail to get a diverse mix with your CFPs, 1) ask yourself why you're unable to reach a more diverse audience and address that, 2) don't fill all your slots via CFPs. This is not rocket science.

... which is an argument for fixing the bias in how you obtain candidates, and to not fill all your slots via CFPs, not for skipping over qualified applicants you already have. You can handle that by adding more slots, or by doing better next time, or any variety of other ways. That you chose an interpretation that fit your agenda of trying to turn finding women for conferences into some majorly impossible task is on you. When coupled with the fact you've made a point of the difficulty of finding candidates, it's clear the issue is not the occasional situation where someone is swimming in male candidates and deciding they had a problem.

You've constructed a convenient strawman, but to be clear: If you make the mistake of publishing a CFP with no provisions for slots you appoint separately, and without ensuring you have a pool that gives you a good shot at a diverse set of speakers, then 1) I've not argued you can't pick from your CFPs, take the (justified) flac, learn from the experience and do better next time. If you've set out terms for applicant selection, then by all means you should stick to them and fix it for next time, even if they reveal that you've done a shit job. But 2) you'll then deserve to be called out for ignoring the plethora of information that is available on means to ensure more diverse sets of speakers, and for publicly for perpetuating an environment that reduces diversity, and it'll be entirely on you if speakers or attendees choose to pull out when they realize you at a minimum don't give a shit, or more likely have beliefs that encourage racial or gender biases, whether you're aware of them or not.

> There has been no defence of anything other than people selecting applicants from their applicant pool.

After you've given excuses for why it's totally reasonable that people don't have women in their applicant pools. You can dress this up however you want, the reality is that it comes across as a clear defense of events failing to take steps to get diverse lineups. I'm sure you don't even think you're doing this, but it was very noticeable.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#93

Faking speakers is pretty shitty but at the same time, it is disheartening to acknowledge that in 2023, there are still people who care about the gender or race of speakers.

> it is disheartening to acknowledge that in 2023, there are still people who care about [the] gender or race In 2023 people care about gender and race EVERYWHERE. No matter where I walk in there is virtue signaling operating at the highest possible level. Live ads, TV ads, everywhere online, the bar, church, my friends house, my enemies house, microcontroller manuals, etc... I wish they tone it down, perhaps more co…

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Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#94
post #91

Faking speakers is pretty shitty but at the same time, it is disheartening to acknowledge that in 2023, there are still people who care about the gender or race of speakers.

I don't like explaining this, because it should be obvious, but pretending this to be obvious would be hypocrisy. Yes, in an ideal world, you wouldn't care. But we are incredibly far away from that ideal, and we must put special care into our actions to keep us moving towards that state. Acting as if there was no problem is ignorance, it enables the privileged to perpetuate the status quo.

My ideal world state is one where there is no race or gender based discrimination. The way to get closer to that ideal is to condemn race or gender based discrimination.

What's problematic about that?

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#95
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like explaining this, because it should be obvious, but pretending this to be obvious would be hypocrisy. Yes, in an ideal world, you wouldn't care. But we are incredibly far away from that ideal, and we must put special care into our actions to keep us moving towards that state. Acting as if there was no problem is ignorance, it enables the privileged to perpetuate the status quo.

My ideal world state is one where there is no race or gender based discrimination. The way to get closer to that ideal is to condemn race or gender based discrimination. What's problematic about that?

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Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there are panels which contain only white men, then I will be asking questions about whether people are being excluded, yes. And less interested in giving money to the people organising the conference.

Why make that assumption? Given that the tech field is predominantly composed of white men, it's not surprising to see panels reflecting this demographic, even without any discriminatory intent. If anything, you'd be more justified in raising that question when encountering a panel containing only black women, considering their underrepresentation in the industry. The probability of that happening randomly, absent of…

> Given that the tech field is predominantly composed of white men

Is it? Why do you assume this? Of the top ten largest tech companies by employee count, 5 are asian multinationals (Foxconn, Jingdong Mall, Alibaba, Panasonic, Canon).

Between that, and the presence of women in "white" tech companies (and yes, I realise plenty of employees in the Asian headquartered companies will also be white, but conversely plenty of employees in the US/Europe based tech companies will be of other ethnicities), which Deloitte put at 25% (based on "analysis and 2021 and 2022 predictions based on published diversity reports from 20 large technology companies (with an average workforce of more than 100,000 employees)") it seems unlikely that white men dominates the tech field all that much.

Once you start slicing and dicing it more by geography, then sure, some niches in some locations will lack diversity and so in some cases it may be reasonable to come across a purely white, male panel.

But consider that maybe blanket assumptions like this might be part of the problem leading people to just dismiss it as just the way thinks are, instead of trying to search out more diverse viewpoints.

(to the "more diverse viewpoints" thing, I'll just point out that even as a white male, I very early in my career came across situations where my cultural experience was a big bonus for an employer because their distinctly non-diverse team led them to make a whole bunch of (incorrect) assumptions about language and internationalisation I didn't, but I still represented language and cultural groups that were very similar to their own; as such if you run a conference and don't ask yourself whether a more diverse lineup might provide added value for your attendees by representing additional viewpoints, you're doing both your attendees and yourself a disservice, and that is another reason why people should consider if your conference is a good one if it seems like you've made no effort)

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#97
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like explaining this, because it should be obvious, but pretending this to be obvious would be hypocrisy. Yes, in an ideal world, you wouldn't care. But we are incredibly far away from that ideal, and we must put special care into our actions to keep us moving towards that state. Acting as if there was no problem is ignorance, it enables the privileged to perpetuate the status quo.

My ideal world state is one where there is no race or gender based discrimination. The way to get closer to that ideal is to condemn race or gender based discrimination. What's problematic about that?

What is problematic about that is that you don't fix existing discrimination by just condemning something while pretending that just as long as you don't make it worse you're not perpetuating the effects of what is there.

In other words, if you run a conference and everyone who applies to speak is a white man, and you don't ask yourself why and what you can do to make that more reflective of society, you're helping to entrench the effects of discrimination in a way that makes your claim that your ideal world state doesn't have that discrimination ring entirely hollow.

Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#98
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is disheartening to acknowledge that in 2023, there are still people who care about [the] gender or race In 2023 people care about gender and race EVERYWHERE. No matter where I walk in there is virtue signaling operating at the highest possible level. Live ads, TV ads, everywhere online, the bar, church, my friends house, my enemies house, microcontroller manuals, etc... I wish they tone it down, perhaps more co…

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Re: Backlash over fake female speakers shuts down developer conference

#100
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran a workshop a few years back, and some female speakers wrote to me (collectively) to ask that I include more women, along with suggested names. Given that in academia there is already probably pro-female bias in hiring, I think this was bad, and in retrospect I should not have accepted it.

I have to read a lot between the lines here so correct me if I misunderstand what happened. You ran a workshop, in the academic field, which tends to hire more women than men these days (your words). Your workshop still managed to be male dominated, despite being in a female-dominated field, and women complained about that?

You are indeed mistaken. The field isn't female-dominated. The claim was not that academic hiring hires more women, but that it is biased in favour of hiring women, which isn't the same. And even if it hired more women, that wouldn't make it female-dominated - a stock is not the same as a flow.
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