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Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

matrix.org

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Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#121

Post by [deleted] »

camgunz wrote: post #118
immibis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix, at this point, is effectively proprietary. It's fully controlled by one for-profit company (Element) and the blockchain protocol (yes, it uses a blockchain) is complicated enough to prevent independent reimplementations. And it doesn't even work that well.

Sorry I don't think anything you've written here is true: > Matrix, at this point, is effectively proprietary. Matrix is fully open [0] and fully spec'd by the MSCs [1], and stewarded by the Matrix Foundation [2]. > It's fully controlled by one for-profit company (Element). 2/5 people on the board work for Element [2]. > and the blockchain protocol (yes, it uses a blockchain) It does not use a blockchain (there is no…

[deleted]

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#122

Post by Syonyk »

_8j50 wrote: post #100
Syonyk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of my life spent on IRC argues "It works just fine, the way it is." I use a znc bouncer these days because my home ISP is less than reliable some months (I consider "cybering" a channel to be quite rude and try to avoid it at all costs), but I've run that on free tier VM instances before with no trouble, and if you don't have one, it's no big deal for the most part. I'm connected to about half a dozen se…

I am with you with IRC experience, but the definition of "works well" is dynamic. These days it means secure and easily accesible from a browser and no "trust me bro" irc server ops lol. I love IRC, the mess that exists today is a result of e2ee being implemented at the application layer instead of transport or session. But much like email, you have to let go of nostalgia. If the horse been dead for 20 years, dismoun…

> But much like email, you have to let go of nostalgia. If the horse been dead for 20 years, dismount!

It's not nostalgia. It's quite literally the best way I've found to get deep, weird, technical details on the deep weeds I play in, because IRC has a lot of other people who are similarly skilled in the arts of wizarding at and below the kernel. I simply assume everything said on IRC is public, and act accordingly. I'll move sensitive conversations over to other platforms if needed, but it's not been a regular issue.

And, yeah, I ran an IRC server, I'm familiar with the power of the admins. I'm also familiar with the power of large tech companies, and don't find them more trustworthy.

... my Thunderbird client says "Email isn't dead either."

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#123

Post by jesopo »

immibis wrote: post #113
k8svet wrote: post #103

I'm so incredibly conflicted about whether to keep investing time and energy and hope around Matrix. I normally have good tech intuition and matrix is in this weird spot. I think the vision and direction and attitudes are amazing but they keep fking up badly. I'm embarrassed at the thought that I would "soon" soft nudge my friends and family to matrix, years ago . With the state of synapse, matrix.org, and the projec…

Matrix, at this point, is effectively proprietary. It's fully controlled by one for-profit company (Element) and the blockchain protocol (yes, it uses a blockchain) is complicated enough to prevent independent reimplementations. And it doesn't even work that well.

there's a lot of critiques to make of matrix's state synchronisation model but "blockchain!!!" is beyond facile

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#124

Post by jesopo »

pwr22 wrote: post #106
kuschku wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a theory: Libera.Chat staff that used to work at Element departed the company due to budget cuts. In combination with the budget cuts' wider effects on the matrix ecosystem, this meant there was little if any hope the issues with the bridge would get fixed.

There were Libera.Chat staff working at EMS???

only one (me)

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#125

Post by immibis »

jesopo wrote: post #123
immibis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix, at this point, is effectively proprietary. It's fully controlled by one for-profit company (Element) and the blockchain protocol (yes, it uses a blockchain) is complicated enough to prevent independent reimplementations. And it doesn't even work that well.

there's a lot of critiques to make of matrix's state synchronisation model but "blockchain!!!" is beyond facile

If you actually read my comment, you'd know that I did make a critique, and your ""blockchain!!!"!!!" reply is beyond facile.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#126

Post by Arathorn »

snvzz wrote: post #61
mistrial9 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

apparently some actors used the Matrix bridge to join private chat rooms in Libera without being detected.. AFAIK

Sounds serious, from an IRC perspective.

The issue in question here is https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1... (and https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/pull/133...) which accidentally regressed due to other stability work done for Libera (specifically, keeping the IRC-side connections persistent, rather than reconnecting when the bridge starts). As a result there was an race condition edge case where users on the Matrix side could read history in the IRC channel while still connecting the Matrix users on the IRC side. This was one of the straws that broke the camel's back in terms of Libera wanting the bridge disabled. The other was the confusion over https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/what-happened-with-the-archi....

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#127

Post by immibis »

doublerabbit wrote: post #49
Syonyk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The only sane place on the internet to get answers to a range of deeply technical questions about modern tech (or, at least, a discussion that will get you closer to the answer) I've found is IRC. It's filled with a lot of "old tech guys who have been doing this forever." And, often enough, that's who you need to make sense of some bit of architectural manual arcana. Discord is awful. It's most of the downsid…

Discord is as if IRC and MSN/Y!M/AIM had an orgy and gave birth to an illegitimate child. Discord got it right but wrong. Channels are correct. Image / File sharing is correct Closed gardens and gimmicks with paid subscriptions is where it falls.

[flagged]

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#128

Post by immibis »

_8j50 wrote: post #24

The whole thing with freenode-> libera and now this has been a shitshow to say the least. I am glad some communities are moving to discord where things are stable and reliable. Instead of implementing proper registration process for example, libera bans ip addresses from tor and vpns unless you auth first and you have to register with an email and an ip they like. I have many criticisms of matrix/element but in this…

Discord does exactly the same, except you still can't use a VPN/Tor once you make an account, and you need a phone number as well as an email address.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#129

Post by immibis »

_8j50 wrote: post #99
Syonyk wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The centralized mess of Discord is neither stable, nor reliable, nor lightweight to access, and it's going to bite a lot of communities in the rear end, very hard, at some point down the road. The history of "convenient, free to use tech" like Discord is "Someone buys it and tries to turn a profit, and squeezes the life out of it." IRC is a "fully mature technology" at this point in the internet. It just works. I bel…

I don't care about tech philosophy. The software needs to work well. Show me an IRC network operated with the same ease of use and security as discord and I will use it provided others are on it as well. You people like your lemmy, mastodon, peertube,etc... and it's not like I disagree with the idea but ideals are only good for academic discussions. They need to work well IRL, there is no replacement for that, period…

Show me a Discord that works as well as you think Discord does. I'll wait.

Re: Shutting down the Matrix bridge to Libera chat

#130

Post by joshsimmons »

k8svet wrote: post #103

I'm so incredibly conflicted about whether to keep investing time and energy and hope around Matrix. I normally have good tech intuition and matrix is in this weird spot. I think the vision and direction and attitudes are amazing but they keep fking up badly. I'm embarrassed at the thought that I would "soon" soft nudge my friends and family to matrix, years ago . With the state of synapse, matrix.org, and the projec…

I really appreciate you sharing your concerns, and for all the hope and energy you've put into Matrix to date. Very much to your point, we're not yet in a state where I recommend Matrix to friends and family. Right now I only use it with people in FOSS and other circles where folks are a little more patient with the tech.

Only time will tell, and of course I'm biased as the Matrix.org Foundation's Managing Director, but I think there's good reason to remain hopeful:

The spec continues to evolve with major improvements expected in feature set and performance in the next year as we get to the 2.0 spec release, the Foundation is staffing up and beginning to fundraise, we're on the cusp of holding our first ever community elections to seat a Governing Board, and adoption has continued doubling on an annual basis.

I invite you and anyone else who is invested and/or concerned to join us in the Foundation's new office room – it's a way to get a view into ongoing activities, ask questions, provide direct feedback, and celebrate all the little wins on our way to collective success: https://matrix.to/#/#foundation-office:matrix.org

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