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Modern C++ Programming Course

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Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#201

Post by dataflow »

maldev wrote: post #96
lnsru wrote: post #13

Any ideas where to start learning C++ as an embedded developer? I wrote many lines of bare metal C code and want to transit to higher level jobs. I see many expensive or completely free courses, but I am not sure which one is usable in my complicated situation.

It depends on what you target. I do alot of Kernel and really low level C++, and it's a completely different style than even app dev, so you have to be sure you don't go down the completely wrong route. For my target space, there's a few rules for c++. Footguns: A. No STL, it causes to much bloat when binary size is critical. B. (almost) No inheritance or virtual functions. Again, it causes some bloat and adds in som…

> No STL, it causes to much bloat when binary size is critical

> A. Learn templates, especially c++20. Templates add ZERO bloat, they literally just generate the function again with proper types

"Avoid STL due to bloat but embrace templates" doesn't make sense to me. Isn't that exactly what code bloat is? Too much code generation?

Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#202

Post by sbuk »

Zetobal wrote: post #50
zakary wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to enlighten those of us who don’t already know the explanation?

ILM was and is an absolute software engineering power house and they started with motion controlled cameras for star wars at the time all their in house software was c++. A lot of software which is still used today. Pixars Renderman, Photoshop, Maya... was initially engineered at ILM or Lucasarts which were subsidiaries of Lucasfilm.

Maya was an Alias|Wavefront product, which was a subsidiary of SGI. It came along way after Pixar had been spun out of ILM. John Knoll, who co-developed Photoshop with his brother Thomas, is still at ILM as the CCO.

Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#203

Post by gosub100 »

nec4b wrote: post #164
gosub100 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on your career goals and whether you're doing greenfield or maintenance coding. If you want to be part of the "new generation" of tech, learn Rust. If you want job security, dont care about doing anything glamorous or exciting, and don't mind a long learning journey, go with C++. It will always be around and it's hard enough to learn that you won't have as much competition.

Only things written in Rust I know are rewrites of decades old C applications or rewrites of js tooling. What "new generation" of games, browsers, editors, CAD applications, etc. are written in Rust? Is Rust used in aerospace, automotive, healthcare, instrumentation or finance industries? What is glamorous in Rust that hasn't been done in other languages?

I think rewrites can be as "glamorous" as greenfield, because you get to use a modern language and toolset. yes you have some drudgery tacked on, which is likely having to wade through legacy C code, but having a perfect set of working requirements (do what the old app does!) more than makes up for it.

Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#204

Post by rramadass »

gpderetta wrote: post #152
rramadass wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C++ isn't remotely suitable as a programming language for someone without a healthy understanding of C. I always look askance at folks who say they know C++ but not C. The C++ abstract machine is built over the C abstract machine and it becomes even more clearer when you go down to the binary level.

Depends what you mean by "understand C". As you say, understanding the C abstract machine and memory model is critical for a C++ programmer. Understanding C idioms, the standard library, best practices, and general C software architecture , is less important if not downright negative early in your formation. You will end up picking a lot up anyway if you stick to C++ long enough.

> is less important if not downright negative

"Less important" maybe but not "negative".

You have to have a decent C base (not necessarily expert level with knowledge of dark corners/tricky idioms/etc.) before you start with C++. One example is being comfortable with raw pointers. I often see "Modern C++" proponents say you should never use (and by inference learn) raw pointers which is absolutely counter-productive. It is also easier to learn C++ as a "better C" in the beginning else it becomes overwhelming. I believe this is the main reason most beginning C++ programmers find the language "scary/difficult/huge/overwhelming/confusing". They are trying to learn everything at the same time which is an impossibility with a language as baroque as C++.

Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#205

Post by Two4 »

dataflow wrote: post #201
maldev wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you target. I do alot of Kernel and really low level C++, and it's a completely different style than even app dev, so you have to be sure you don't go down the completely wrong route. For my target space, there's a few rules for c++. Footguns: A. No STL, it causes to much bloat when binary size is critical. B. (almost) No inheritance or virtual functions. Again, it causes some bloat and adds in som…

> No STL, it causes to much bloat when binary size is critical > A. Learn templates, especially c++20. Templates add ZERO bloat, they literally just generate the function again with proper types "Avoid STL due to bloat but embrace templates" doesn't make sense to me. Isn't that exactly what code bloat is? Too much code generation?

Bloat can also refer to the invisible infrastructure code that's compiled into a binary when using certain language features. C has a fairly linear relationship to the size of the compiled assembly, iirc, but C++ will vary wildly based on which features you use.

Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#207

Post by nec4b »

steveklabnik wrote: post #184
nec4b wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only things written in Rust I know are rewrites of decades old C applications or rewrites of js tooling. What "new generation" of games, browsers, editors, CAD applications, etc. are written in Rust? Is Rust used in aerospace, automotive, healthcare, instrumentation or finance industries? What is glamorous in Rust that hasn't been done in other languages?

It is difficult to answer this question because there are so many answers, and they're so broad. I will try to give some partial answers. > games Some indie games, a new AAA studio has been working on a game for a while (Embark, their first game is still in C++ but they are building the foundations for the next ones, which takes time), at least one AAA studio known to use it for tooling (Treyarch). The first time I p…

Basically it is being used as any other language out there. Nothing more glamorous than what existing languages are used for.

Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#208

Post by aa-jv »

maldev wrote: post #143
Leherenn wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add constexpr (I guess it might be included with templates?). You can do some nifty stuff like generate CRC lookup tables at compile time without hardcoding them.

Yes! 100% Right, can't believe I left that out. One of the big things is to make sure to use ConstEval if you can do a new verson of c++(20), since ConstExpr isn't guaranteed and can leave stuff in the binary that can hurt size or obfuscation. For example one thing I see alot is lookup tables for hashing who use constexpr and hide some key data in there, but it "may" just randomly do it, and can cause alot of issues.

How does the use of ConstEval address this issue?

Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#209

Post by aa-jv »

Two4 wrote: post #205
dataflow wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No STL, it causes to much bloat when binary size is critical > A. Learn templates, especially c++20. Templates add ZERO bloat, they literally just generate the function again with proper types "Avoid STL due to bloat but embrace templates" doesn't make sense to me. Isn't that exactly what code bloat is? Too much code generation?

Bloat can also refer to the invisible infrastructure code that's compiled into a binary when using certain language features. C has a fairly linear relationship to the size of the compiled assembly, iirc, but C++ will vary wildly based on which features you use.

Indeed, it is a common refrain among C++ programmers to inspect ones binaries, I have found ..

Re: Modern C++ Programming Course

#210

Post by aa-jv »

lnsru wrote: post #13

Any ideas where to start learning C++ as an embedded developer? I wrote many lines of bare metal C code and want to transit to higher level jobs. I see many expensive or completely free courses, but I am not sure which one is usable in my complicated situation.

You can definitely start putting C++ into your embedded projects, and get familiar with things in an environment in which you're already operating. A lot of great C++ code can be found with motivated use of, for example, the platformio tooling, such that you can see for yourself some existing C++ In Embedded scenarios.

In general, also, I have found that it is wise to learn C++ socially - i.e. participate in Open Source projects, as you learn/study/contribute/assist other C++ developers, on a semi-regular basis.

I've learned a lot about what I would call "decent C++ code" (i.e. shipping to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of customers) from such projects. I would suggest finding an open source C++ project, aligned with your interests, and study the codebase - as well as the repo history (i.e. gource) - to get a productive, relatively effortless (if the interests align) boost into the subject.

(My particular favourite project is the JUCE Audio library: https://juce.com/ .. one of many hundreds of great projects out there from which one can also glean modern C++ practices..)

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