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I hereby pardon all junior engineers

taylor.town

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Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#31

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

hibikir wrote: post #15
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #2

> It seems like nobody knows how to build things anymore. The Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Germans, etc might disagree. There's a lot of people out there who seem to be able to build very high quality things fairly quickly. It seems like it's the Americans that are struggling. We have for a long time, actually. I would argue we just have a shitty building culture. We chase trends, cheap out on materials and salaries,…

It's ultimately about practice: Spain's first high speed train was massively over budget, and seen as a boondoggle. If building had stopped there, it would have been a curiosity, but the government kept asking for more track, and with practice come better results. It's difficult to succeed in early projects of all kinds, but it's not just people that learn: organizations do too. Set up good incentives, and be OK with…

Especially for big projects, I often get the sense that failing a couple times is seen as unthinkable in the US: so a lot of ambitious initiatives lose funding or become laughingstocks because of publicized early failures. As a result, there’s a tendency to over-engineer in some areas and reduce ambitions in others.

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#32

Post by oceanplexian »

throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #2

> It seems like nobody knows how to build things anymore. The Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Germans, etc might disagree. There's a lot of people out there who seem to be able to build very high quality things fairly quickly. It seems like it's the Americans that are struggling. We have for a long time, actually. I would argue we just have a shitty building culture. We chase trends, cheap out on materials and salaries,…

The US for sure knows how to build things. SpaceX alone delivered over 80% of mass to orbit while China’s entire space program can’t keep pace with a single American company. We are also killing it at EVs, again, all the great might of the Chinese economy is playing catch up to Tesla.

The thing is, we know how to build things.

Those things aren’t crappy block apartments or faster trains. They are: space ships, artificial intelligence, robotics, cutting edge medicine, etc. The name of the game is individuality, entrepreneurship, and freedom (The ingredients that built the most powerful economy in the world). These are antithetical to both their political system and their culture.

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#33

Post by williamcotton »

I don’t blame the junior engineers either. I blame their seniors and managers.

Leadership is especially awful these days and across most industries. Leaders tend to be too far removed from object level reality and just sit around blowing smoke up buttholes all day long. If you got laid off in the last year or two it’s because your leaders failed you with their shitty cargo cult approach to running a business. “Der, Google is hiring like crazy and dey lots of money and I want big big boat… so what if we hire like crazy and make radios out of coconuts?”

It’s easy to throw shade but when I was last at the Facebook HQ I saw Mark Zuckerberg down on the floor talking to a young designer. He also took personal responsibility for the slimy layer of middle management that emerged over the decade prior, the result of which contributed heavily to the need for layoffs in the first place.

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#34

Post by bigiain »

oceanplexian wrote: post #32
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #2

> It seems like nobody knows how to build things anymore. The Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Germans, etc might disagree. There's a lot of people out there who seem to be able to build very high quality things fairly quickly. It seems like it's the Americans that are struggling. We have for a long time, actually. I would argue we just have a shitty building culture. We chase trends, cheap out on materials and salaries,…

The US for sure knows how to build things. SpaceX alone delivered over 80% of mass to orbit while China’s entire space program can’t keep pace with a single American company. We are also killing it at EVs, again, all the great might of the Chinese economy is playing catch up to Tesla. The thing is, we know how to build things. Those things aren’t crappy block apartments or faster trains. They are: space ships, artifi…

"As a result, this country has one of the worst economies in the world. When it gets down to it -- talking trade balances here -- once we've brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out, they're making cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and selling them here -- once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickel -- once the Invisible Hand has taken all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity -- y'know what? There's only four things we do better than anyone else

music

movies

microcode (software)

high-speed pizza delivery"

-- Neal Stephenson, Snowcrash, 1992

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#35

Post by wewtyflakes »

financltravsty wrote: post #25
wewtyflakes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been my experience that there are good and bad engineers from all origins; Americans do not have a monopoly on it in either direction, nor does anyone else.

Good and bad in the sense that they can achieve management's directives? Yes, anyone from any culture so long as they have a practical grasp of the language they're working in can adapt to the circumstance. But the culture starts at the top. Everything within the U.S. spiritual ecosystem is geared towards a superficial approach to all things. One example in the vein of engineering is Ford vs. Toyota. Anyone who has o…

"Everything within the U.S. spiritual ecosystem is geared towards a superficial approach to all things"

This is hyperbole, I don't think there will be any way to convince you.

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#36

Post by andrewjl »

financltravsty wrote: post #25
wewtyflakes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been my experience that there are good and bad engineers from all origins; Americans do not have a monopoly on it in either direction, nor does anyone else.

Good and bad in the sense that they can achieve management's directives? Yes, anyone from any culture so long as they have a practical grasp of the language they're working in can adapt to the circumstance. But the culture starts at the top. Everything within the U.S. spiritual ecosystem is geared towards a superficial approach to all things. One example in the vein of engineering is Ford vs. Toyota. Anyone who has o…

> spiritual ecosystem

what does this mean?

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#37

Post by rramadass »

jhp123 wrote: post #23

I connected with this, I've had many of the same thoughts lately. It's a thoughtful essay and I have no idea why it's been flagged? > When fewer than 5,000 programmers existed, they built Lisp (1960) and APL (1966) and sketchpad (1963). With over 5 million programmers today, the best we can do is Rust and React. It feels like this has worsened even just in the last 15 years. When I started in the industry (2008ish) i…

> It feels like this has worsened even just in the last 15 years.

It is a question of Statistics/Probability and similar to statements like "The End of Science"(see John Morgan's book) i.e. all the main/major aspects of knowledge are already known. IMO the following are the reasons;

1) In the early days the field was populated with experts and the quality of the output was high. There was also a lot of unknowns to be mapped out and hence the quality and importance of inventions/discoveries were startling.

2) Once you have the fundamentals of a Scientific Theory with Principles and Guidelines laid out for a particular field almost all future developments in applications can be anticipated and will seem like "nothing new". Our very advances in Mathematics and Sciences negate future novelty. One good example is the current advances in AI/ML which is merely a hodge-podge of Statistical techniques/Computation models and lots of power.

3) With the rise of the Internet/other forms of content delivery, a very large number of non-experts now have access to a bullhorn to spread noise and amplify it in very many dimensions in the service of vested interests like business/power/money/etc. Hence the s/n ratio is very much diluted i.e. there is now a lot of junk to wade through.

4) Finally; Social mores, norms and values are very different today and hence discovering/inventing Knowledge has been made subservient to other goals/needs.

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#38

Post by financltravsty »

andrewjl wrote: post #36
financltravsty wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good and bad in the sense that they can achieve management's directives? Yes, anyone from any culture so long as they have a practical grasp of the language they're working in can adapt to the circumstance. But the culture starts at the top. Everything within the U.S. spiritual ecosystem is geared towards a superficial approach to all things. One example in the vein of engineering is Ford vs. Toyota. Anyone who has o…

> spiritual ecosystem what does this mean?

Hard to define if it doesn’t “click.”

I’ll try though: the collection of intangible qualities that interact with the human spirit, that are found within a certain environment. The qualities themselves interact with one another to create a sort of “bubble”/“soul”/“vibe”/“mood”/etc. For example, if you go into a loud open office with harsh fluorescent lights, no windows, and stagnant air you could say the environment drains the spirit. From there it will have an effect on your psyche, and cascade into you acting a certain way that reinforces that draining quality and adds a certain extra “flavor.” E.g. if the environment drains you, you might become short-tempered, unaltruistic, or mean-spirited. In that case your actions will reinforce the overall displeasing atmosphere of the office, but now you’ve also added the aforementioned knock-on qualities. If we take this further, then perhaps this would lead to a work environment where no great work is done. People go in, do the bare minimum and tolerate it, but the possibility of any higher qualities like craftsmanship, care, and conscientiousness have been rendered null — due to the collection of qualities just mentioned. And from there it continues to cascade.

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#39

Post by financltravsty »

wewtyflakes wrote: post #35
financltravsty wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good and bad in the sense that they can achieve management's directives? Yes, anyone from any culture so long as they have a practical grasp of the language they're working in can adapt to the circumstance. But the culture starts at the top. Everything within the U.S. spiritual ecosystem is geared towards a superficial approach to all things. One example in the vein of engineering is Ford vs. Toyota. Anyone who has o…

"Everything within the U.S. spiritual ecosystem is geared towards a superficial approach to all things" This is hyperbole, I don't think there will be any way to convince you.

I agree that there isn’t much of a chance I can be convinced otherwise, having travelled and having not been born in the U.S.

I disagree that it is hyperbole. The main motive of this country seems to be exerting power over others. Whether that be through military, monetary, or quasi-cultural means: onto other nations and onto its own citizens. It’s very Prussian in its pursuit; and nothing that requires sensitivity can flourish here.

Re: I hereby pardon all junior engineers

#40

Post by throwawaaarrgh »

oceanplexian wrote: post #32
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #2

> It seems like nobody knows how to build things anymore. The Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Germans, etc might disagree. There's a lot of people out there who seem to be able to build very high quality things fairly quickly. It seems like it's the Americans that are struggling. We have for a long time, actually. I would argue we just have a shitty building culture. We chase trends, cheap out on materials and salaries,…

The US for sure knows how to build things. SpaceX alone delivered over 80% of mass to orbit while China’s entire space program can’t keep pace with a single American company. We are also killing it at EVs, again, all the great might of the Chinese economy is playing catch up to Tesla. The thing is, we know how to build things. Those things aren’t crappy block apartments or faster trains. They are: space ships, artifi…

Most of what you mentioned is research & development, not building. I don't know why you say we're killing it at EVs, when there's many competitors, and Tesla churned out dreck for years until it finally produced a decent car without defects, and had to be floated constantly on US government subsidies. SpaceX is the only thing that seems to work reliably, probably due to sheer will from passionate engineers and a ton of QA (and a whole lot of NASA experience).

Anyone can come up with a new sandwich, given enough time and money. Not everyone can churn out 1 million sandwiches, quickly, perfectly, every time. That's what building is about.

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