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Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

theregister.com

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Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#61

Post by numpad0 »

MegaDeKay wrote: post #21
joezydeco wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the notion here that opening up ThreadX will start to allow visibility into VideoCore, since ThreadX runs the thing. But an RTOS/scheduler is only a miniscule part of a GPU and since Broadcom never opens up anything, I believe it's a false hope. Opening up any GPU code, from any maker, invites patent lawsuits from competitors. And then the injunctions start flying.

"Broadcom never opens up anything". True, but from a link in the related article from The Guardian [0] > Broadcom when they developed the original Videocore firmware bought a licence for ThreadX from the writer. AIUI, a lifetime licence, it never expires. No royalties or anything like that. Raspberry Pi have modified that firmware many many times over the last 10 years, but no royalties to pay. Many years later the w…

The one put under an open license is just one of numerous forks. The code on RasPi is a different fork modified downstream.

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#62

Post by uxp8u61q »

paddy_m wrote: post #16

It took a lot of reading of that blogpost before I realized that it was about an operating system. I seriously thought it was about some parallel threading standard. Especially for a broad announcement like that, they should give readers some more context.

If you don't know what an RTOS is, then what makes you think you're in the target audience for this article?

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#63

Post by uxp8u61q »

SanjayMehta wrote: post #35
westurner wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are there devs for the acquired platform now? The article says ThreadX used to be what Intel Management Engine ME ran on? How do I configure the ME / AMT VNC auth in there?

The IME ran on Minix. https://itsfoss.com/fact-intel-minix-case/

You've got that reversed. IME runs MINIX now, it used to run on ThreadX.

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#64

Post by freedomben »

This is indeed a major deal, and having the Eclipse Foundation shepherd it is wonderful.

Microsoft deserves praise and even adulation for this, but time will tell how well supported the project is. They have a good track record so I'm very optimistic, but this is going to require a lot of ongoing support. That shouldn't be and isn't on Microsoft alone now, but they may have to shoulder a larger burden while getting things moving.

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#65

Post by Andrex »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #51
unnouinceput wrote: post #40

Quote: " Now, there is at least some hope that the Raspberry Pi Foundation might be able to get permission to release the source code for its version" This is something that always irked me about RPi's. How the fuck, you, the hardware vendor, that's suppose to know the inner guts of your product, do not have full production for its software? That you need it to rely on undisclosed 3rd party blobs!! Yes, yes, I know a…

Getting downvoted because nobody took the time to read your post, I assume. RPi foundation could probably have their own SoC made at this point, and (finally) having fully open firmware would be a huge selling point and maybe help stave off the clones. So why don't they do that?

The RPi 5 has custom silicon.

Custom silicon is hard and few would accept significant a step down in raw power compared to the previous generation while the transition occurs.

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#66

Post by lproven »

joezydeco wrote: post #37
seba_dos1 wrote: post #31

> used in Raspberry Pis Raspberry Pi is probably one of the less notable users.

But it makes RPi fans perk up their ears because it's part of the GPU blob that they still haven't been able to reverse-engineer. This news about Azure RTOS has been posted to HN a few times over the last week or so, even once by me, but I didn't realize you had to put "Raspberry Pi" in the headline to get traction.

Article author/submitter here.

> I didn't realize you had to put "Raspberry Pi" in the headline to get traction.

Yes, this was my theory. I was guessing most people hadn't heard of ThreadX and didn't know what it was or that it was used in devices they already owned. That is the sort of info that gets stuff read and shared.

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#67

Post by kqr2 »

cinntaile wrote: post #45
joezydeco wrote: post #5

This was "Azure RTOS", bought by Microsoft in haste after Amazon acquired FreeRTOS. Bill Lamie left to start PX5 and work on a new lightweight embedded RTOS and took most of the talent with him. If Microsoft is doing this, they're pretty much walking away from their roadmap for Azure RTOS and IoT nodes along those lines. I call it a win, ThreadX had a lot more ecosystem behind it than FreeRTOS ever did. And it does r…

It's an acquisition from 2017 but do you happen to know why Amazon bought FreeRTOS?

Amazon missed the boat on mobile phone operating systems. They tried to make their own phone but that was a massive failure.

By buying FreeRTOS and building up the ecosystem, they were hoping to own the OS for IOTs.

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#68

Post by lproven »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #51
unnouinceput wrote: post #40

Quote: " Now, there is at least some hope that the Raspberry Pi Foundation might be able to get permission to release the source code for its version" This is something that always irked me about RPi's. How the fuck, you, the hardware vendor, that's suppose to know the inner guts of your product, do not have full production for its software? That you need it to rely on undisclosed 3rd party blobs!! Yes, yes, I know a…

Getting downvoted because nobody took the time to read your post, I assume. RPi foundation could probably have their own SoC made at this point, and (finally) having fully open firmware would be a huge selling point and maybe help stave off the clones. So why don't they do that?

[Article author/submitter here]

> RPi foundation could probably have their own SoC made at this point

"Could have"? The RP2040 chip in the Pi Pico is their own silicon. The RP1 "south bridge" chip in the new Pi 5 is also their own silicon.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/21/pi_pico/

This is nothing new. They've been doing it since 2016-2018.

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#69

Post by jauntywundrkind »

Zigurd wrote: post #15
joezydeco wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the notion here that opening up ThreadX will start to allow visibility into VideoCore, since ThreadX runs the thing. But an RTOS/scheduler is only a miniscule part of a GPU and since Broadcom never opens up anything, I believe it's a false hope. Opening up any GPU code, from any maker, invites patent lawsuits from competitors. And then the injunctions start flying.

Can confirm: same story for PowerVR. It's a double whammy: They want the driver licensing revenue and they are afraid of patent trouble.

I was going to point out that Linux 6.8 seems on target to be shipping pretty decent powervr drivers, but yeah, probably a huge massive chunk of the magic is in the firmware blob, which is closed as heck as usual for this industry. Both drivers & boob very recently dropped: https://www.phoronix.com/news/PowerVR-Firmware-Blob

I think though they're finally realized trying to charge people for drivers has made them a hated name & gotten them no where. GMA500 is a long awful wound on everyone & held Intel back from being much better at embedded than they could have been. Powervr has been one of those living embodiments of the phrase "expensive chips without good drivers are just expensive sand", or however it goes. So now this stuff hypothetically is going to start to be broadly usable (only on Linux underimited architrctures I guess? Since it's mostly binary blobs?).

Re: Microsoft open-sources ThreadX

#70

Post by bri3d »

Andrex wrote: post #55
joezydeco wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it's wishful thinking. I wish all you RPi fans the best in your endeavor.

Maybe a clean room recreation is possible? Or are those straws even further out of grasp...

Sure, and it's been done: https://github.com/christinaa/rpi-open-firmware - but that doesn't involve ThreadX source, just some standard reverse engineering work. ThreadX is really the least interesting part of this whole operation in terms of the Raspberry Pi.

It's very cool that ThreadX has been open sourced as it offers an additional battle tested and mature alternative to FreeRTOS for new projects. If they're able to get and maintain the various safety certifications for ThreadX under the Eclipse foundation, this could be game-changing in a very different space from the Pi. But in terms of reverse engineering or open sourcing the Raspberry Pi VideoCore blob, open source ThreadX is pretty much a non-event IMO.

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