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Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

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31–40 of 192 posts

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#31
They are great books about some combinatorial mathematics inspired by programming problems. Not the best investment of time if you want to learn programming itself, because:

1. Most of the time you are not implementing foundational algorithms like sorting or SAT solving. You use mature implementation in libraries.

2. If you are in fact implementing foundational algorithms, then the existing volumes of Knuth cover only a very limited set of problem areas.

3. If you are implementing something in an area covered by Knuth, the books are worth looking into as a reference, but often writing performant and robust code requires considerations not in Knuth. This is because Knuth works with an idealised machine ignoring things like parallelism, memory hierarchy etc. and understandably does not get into software design issues.

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#32
If you have to ask yourself this question. No, It is not.

I read TAOCP out of curiosity long time ago. Has it been useful for me? Very much. But the usefulness came from abstract connections that clicked later in my life almost randomly. I am not a common individual.

If you expect a direct practical application of what you read, I believe you better choose other material that suits your needs better.

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#33

I thought the books where a kind of reference material, rather than a guided study.

It's a guided study, but because doing the guided study is daunting and would take years, in practice many people (among those who read it at all) tend to use it as a reference, dipping in to specific topics here and there.

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#34
This is certainly a matter of taste. I saw many prominent people everywhere praising TAOCP, but I was disappointed when I finally read the first three books some 10+ years ago. So much disappointed that I regret taking all the time to read it - not because they're bad books, but because I think that time would have been better spent learning things a different way. What bothered me most is MIX. I think using a very low-level language to teach algorithms is a pretty bad choice. Algorithms are high-level concepts, and using an assembly-like language just distracts from those concepts; it requires you to solve so many micro-problems orthogonal to the real problem, and forces you to repeat yourself over and over. I prefer to implement abstract ideas in abstract code. Using MIX just causes suffering for no point. I learned a lot about math from TAOCP (but I've never needed it for anything).

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#35
I've read most of Volumes 1-3 of TAOCP.

I think you can read at various levels though.

When I say I've read most of Volumes 1-3, I mean literally that, I read the text through. At that level it isn't too difficult to read, and you'll learn a lot like that.

However some bits I've studied in much greater detail, like for instance the multi-precision arithmetic algorithms which I had to implement. For that I read it multiple times, implemented the algorithms, did some of the exercises. That takes much much longer than just reading it through.

It is rather like reading a research paper which you do roughly like this, stopping after any step where you think it is no longer providing value to you.

    1. Read the title
    2. Read the abstract
    3. Read the paper through quickly.
    4. Read the paper through slowly being more critical, making notes.
    5. Read the paper through again working through the maths, implementing the algorithms, making sure you understand everything.
To get the most out of it, you'll need to go to level 5, but you can get a great deal out of it at the earlier levels.

So I've read most of TAOCP at level 3, half a volume at level 4 and only 50 pages at level 5.

If nothing else I've loaded the index in my head!

PS the examples are notorious in TAOCP. The easy ones will take a few minutes and the hard ones are unsolved research problems!

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#36
post #18
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for being honest about it. Sad to see that it's downvoted. I guess people spent the time and effort and don't want to admit it might not have been valuable.

How do you measure the value? I treasure these books, they've brought me so much joy over the years. They've likely not affected my career trajectory much, but they've absolutely enriched my personal life.

Exactly. It’s hard define value. Did some random thing you read lead to some other insight? Can you link them directly? I think societies relentless pursuit of productivity and ROI has killed the creativity that comes from general knowledge.

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#37
TAOCP is about like reading an encyclopedia; a very well-written, black and white encyclopedia with not-necessarily-clear illustrations.

For instance, I just opened randomly to the binary tree traversal material in Vol. I. It's very mathematic or formal, e.g. "T2. [P = Λ?] If P = Λ, go to step T4." and so on. To fish out some of the more interesting details, you have to look through the questions and then flip to the answers.

Meanwhile, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_traversal has the same information but somehow more clearly presented.

If I flip to other random pages and scan for 30 seconds, I can't find much that is actually interesting---particularly in the early volumes.

-----

The Art of Electronics is more my speed, as it's a collection of real-world applications, deep dives into each component type, quick comparison tables, and clear overview of a specific design's pros and cons. It's as much interesting to read through as it is useful as a reference.

I can flip to basically any random page of The Art of Electronics and find something eliciting, "Oh cool." I can't say the same for TAOCP.

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#39
post #34

This is certainly a matter of taste. I saw many prominent people everywhere praising TAOCP, but I was disappointed when I finally read the first three books some 10+ years ago. So much disappointed that I regret taking all the time to read it - not because they're bad books, but because I think that time would have been better spent learning things a different way. What bothered me most is MIX. I think using a very l…

Did nobody create a MIX virtual machine or compiler in all this time?

Re: Ask HN: Is Knuth's TAOCP worth the time and effort?

#40
post #35

I've read most of Volumes 1-3 of TAOCP. I think you can read at various levels though. When I say I've read most of Volumes 1-3, I mean literally that, I read the text through. At that level it isn't too difficult to read, and you'll learn a lot like that. However some bits I've studied in much greater detail, like for instance the multi-precision arithmetic algorithms which I had to implement. For that I read it mul…

the hard ones are unsolved research problems?

I haven't read the book, so he poses research questions as exercises to the reader...?

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